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The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours | Ted Lasso, Chicago Seven, and Sandwiches

Join actor and Hollywood screenwriter, Rob Gibbs, and Sweet Tea’s Artistic Director, Jeremy Fiebig, on this After Hours podcast episode as they discuss their current TV obsessions — Ted Lasso and Aaron Sorkin’s The Trial of the Chicago Seven. Oh, and sandwiches.
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well by spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.
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The Hours are only possible because of regular support from our monthly sustainers and patrons. Please consider making a monthly pledge on Patreon. With options beginning at just $5, and plenty of great perks, you’ll find a great way to join the STS family.
You can always contact the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com.
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The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.
Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.
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This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina Arts Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural Resources.

0 (0s):
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1 (60s):
<inaudible> hello and welcome to The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours where we spend time. Well, by spending it together, we’re so glad you’re here. Sweet Tea Shakespeare is a theater and music company based in North Carolina that seeks to gather diverse communities around a common table to delight in story song and stagecraft. This podcast is kinda like our digital campfire, a place where we can come together to share ideas and tell stories. Our podcast has four distinct ways of gathering and sharing those ideas and stories.

1 (1m 41s):
You’re currently listening to After. Hours a series of candid discussions about politics and pop culture, and occasionally their intersections with Shakespeare. For the best listening experience, we recommend a stiff drink or a strong cup of coffee. So grab your favorite late night beverage and settle in. Things are about to get in trouble. Hello? Hello to you, sir. How are ya? All right. A happy st. Crispin’s day. It is st. Crispin’s day. I watched the Kenneth Breno speech this morning to get you in the mood. Yes. I usually have some friend posting it.

1 (2m 22s):
I always forget that it’s Saint Crispin’s de and I’m always reminded because someone, someone I know in Shakespeare world, Pop’s on something right. Here you go. So we get out there and show your scars to your kids. Folks at Saint Crispin’s day, they for a scar show in its right and make it in front of the French. It’s my face. My favorite pastime actually, it’s like my fourth favorite pastime, but that’s okay. It’s it’s the one thing I have in common with a Republicans, I guess

2 (3m 1s):
Oh I suppose st. Crispin’s day is not specifically created to make fun of the French. It’s really just a press and Shakespeare land. What, what is Schaefer? What is Saint Crispin’s day? I mean, it’s a celebration of Saint Crispin, right? Yeah. Where do you do? I really should know this.

0 (3m 24s):
He was, he was a martyr. I think this is going to be embarrassing when they play it I’ll have to do an editorial note.

2 (3m 35s):
We both, we both have, so it was like surely in our, in our studies are Shakespeare when deconstructing this. At some point we, we looked at what Saint Crispin was all about for the crispy, crispy and crispy and Shaun their go by. I do know the speech. Oh, wow. This is, I know,

0 (4m 6s):
You know, the English are really good at a Aeros. Yeah. And, and, and they won a big battle on this day. Yeah.

2 (4m 15s):
It just feels like some significant self ownership here, right. At the top of a podcast. Yeah. That’s all we need to know. Right here.

0 (4m 28s):
Are you for that? We were talking about things. We know something slightly more about today. You know, we’re, we’re talking about two things on, on a streaming television and a some Sandwiches.

2 (4m 43s):
Yeah, that’s right. We’re gonna begin by talking about The a television series. Ted Lasso, Ted, Lasso available for your viewing pleasure on Apple TV. Plus I feel it

0 (5m 3s):
Like I was the last person in America to become acquainted with this show. And I’m glad I did,

2 (5m 12s):
You know, I don’t think you are actually, it’s been out for a little while, but it seems like you’re kinda right at the moment where this show is beginning to really serve us in terms of public consciousness it’s been kicking around. But all of a sudden, as far as the zeitgeists goes, everybody seems to be keying into it all at once here on site.

0 (5m 34s):
I heard of it and I was like, yeah, I’ll probably put that on it. At some point in the thing that pushed me over the top actually was Bernay Brown had like <inaudible> and a couple others on her podcast. I was like, it’s interesting. I can do this. Bernay Brown says it’s, it’s good. I trust her.

2 (5m 54s):
Well, it’s an interesting show. It weirdly subversive for the moment and it’s way because of how nice it is. It’s like, that’s kind of, The the interesting thing about it for those of you who don’t know. Well, let’s backtrack a little bit and I get to that and we’ll talk about what Ted Lasso is. It is a, a sit-com good old 30 minutes. They come to those single camera, not multi-camera meaning that it looks like a film instead of on a studio stage with a live studio audience, which it does not have about

3 (6m 33s):
An American football

2 (6m 35s):
Coach, who is the coach of a, a, a minor college program in with the state shockers. Here you go. And who is hired after a successful season, a at the university works four to a coach, a British football soccer for us on washed Americans team

3 (7m 7s):
In, in Britain.

2 (7m 10s):
And, you know, in their, I forget the way that they, and it’s a premier league, which is their highest sort of, you know, it’s a major, it’s a major professional soccer franchise and he’s hired to be their coach without knowing anything about soccer at all. A he is a, a sort of a, you know, Midwestern slash Southern coated American guy, a guy who, you know, is it a superficially of the kind of person who you would imagine would be a football coach in terms of knowing all of the things that a football coach would know and a sort of it, it’s clearly kind of a fish out of water type story.

2 (7m 56s):
That’s what it’s a purported to be, where you come to find out very quickly. This is not a spoiler it’s revealed within minutes. So the first episode is that he has been hired by the team’s owner, specifically to ruin the franchise to tank it. She has recently divorced from a S I, a guy who is a very wealthy, British Mann, who is sort of coated to be a little bit like a Rupert Murdoch type. In some ways they both seem to be in media circles and whatnot, and in an extremely acrimonious divorce, because he cheated on her publicly.

2 (8m 43s):
She got the team, which is the thing he loves the most in life. Her ex-husband loved this, a middling premier league soccer team. And she wants to absolutely rounded to the ground and destroy in order to hurt him. That’s her objective. And that’s why she has hired this man who she believes is, is a doofus in the American who doesn’t know anything about soccer to, to a coach, to the team in order to ruin it. And the shell plays out from there. Everybody is very hostile to him. The fans don’t like them, the presses a, you know, hostile to him, the team itself, and the team members are hostile to him.

2 (9m 33s):
And he’s got to come in and deal with that. And the show is about how he does that over the course of the season. Interestingly, the show was taken from a series of commercials, like little interstitials that Jason Sudeikis did for NBC, ah, as a joke like Ted, Lasso a football coach, a, you know, coaching or a soccer team is a very one-note thing. It was funny, but it was surprising the idea that you would make a sitcom out of this, but the, a guy who sort of saw those commercials inside of a, Hey, let’s do a show, was bill Lawrence, who has had some very funny shows on the past.

2 (10m 15s):
He’s the creator and showrunner of scrubs back when it was on TV and also a After that Cougar town and his particular temperament and point of view, it sort of suffuses This in interesting ways where we can talk about it, but at that sort of the broad overview of what the show is, right? You got it. And so, yeah, it’s about this guy whose American is, can be come in to England, where everybody hates him to do this thing. Nobody thinks he can do, but he’s super positive and very, you know, very optimistic.

2 (10m 56s):
And he has the assistance of one other American who is a assistant coach, coach beard, who is a solid dude who knows about soccer, where it Ted Lasso does that. So anyway, that’s sort of a broad overview. What did you think about this show? Why do you like it so much? Jeremy

0 (11m 21s):
You say, you said earlier, why you thought the show was subversive and it is, and not in the ways that I think anyone signing on for it would expect it is continually subversive. It is a constantly surprising, and it does it in, in two main ways. The, the, the human way is that it, it perceives the opposite. It is, it is not. Mmm. It is about the, of sarcasm winning it’s about earnestness winning. It is about sweetness. It is about cuteness. It is about joy.

0 (12m 3s):
It is about forgiveness. It is about like the opposite of toxic male leadership is about friendship. It’s about all of those things. It is not saccharin it for the most part of me. And they were, there are parts of it that are a little sort of campy, but, but not, there are not in a way that is making fun of anyone really it’s, it’s just like people for the most part over the course of the season, trying to be good to other people. And so th th th so in the human way, I think it is surprising there because a lot of art and a lot of human beings these days are set up to, to move in the opposite direction.

0 (12m 48s):
The other thing I think it does because it’s doing all of those things is actually take all of the, the common sort of a romcom tropes, a sit-com

2 (12m 59s):
Cringe or, or cringe comedy sort of trouble.

0 (13m 1s):
And it just upends them. It reverses them. It does, it takes all of the tension. You think you’re going to be about that? I don’t know. I did something bad behind the scenes, and now I’ve got to, to own up to it. And it, it has, there is a generous response in the end of every single one of those things. It diffuses all of the sort of bitter human consequences that are attached to a lot of the choices you would see in another TV show. That was about the same thing. So I just think of it, it’s utterly surprising in those ways.

2 (13m 36s):
It is. And you would think that that would underlie a undermine the tension of the show, or, but it, but it doesn’t say there are other things and you know, where it finds that, but, but it is clearly a, you know, came in with this point of view and an agenda. And the fact that it isn’t saccharin is, is important. You know, the world Ted Lasso is this, you know, as a guy who is sort of is extremely corny in his persona, but the world in which he lives is, is a very real world. And, and the show does in an interesting way, sort of interrogate, what would it be like for a person who is like this, this sort of ridiculous man in some respects to actually exist.

2 (14m 29s):
And I, we don’t get a lot of explanation for why Ted is the way he is in this show, but it does in depth and interesting ways sort of interrogate what it is, how it, how a person like this would be perceived by others and what his, like, what some of his personal, you know, weaknesses would be in spite of that. And, you know, the thing that it’s doing is in it, it is it’s playing on your expectations as well. Now they’re just going to be the fight that they’re gonna have to deal with. Now, they’re just going to be the thing, and then it doesn’t come.

2 (15m 11s):
And then when it does come, it’s resolved in ways that are, are unexpected for like the human drama, the human interactions. It’s like, I’ve been portrayed by, you you’ve hurt me. You’ve done something. It, it resolves in ways or plays out in ways that are different than from what we’ve been conditioned to expect from. Like you say, you know, these sorts of sitcoms or, or whatever, where people get angry and selfish and, and whatnot, but the way they also play out, it feels very realistic. It’s like, Oh yeah, it could be this way. Or, you know, and, you know, I think Lawrence, what’s clearly true about like the creative team on this.

2 (15m 52s):
They’ve taken a perspective where it’s like a, you know, all comedy seem to be rooted in this idea that people are <inaudible> and an ugly and the small and nasty. And that’s true sometimes. And this show does portray that in, in realistic ways, but he says, but people are just as likely to respond in ways that are a human right and pine. And you know, that society rolls along because people find a way to resolve their issues and to work with each other. Right. And I think the real power of the show is that it is, you know, portrayal of people’s darkness in their cynicism, in their ugliness, in their pain and their nastiness.

2 (16m 42s):
It is all very real, but that the, Oh the influence of this one guy who chooses not to be that way and tries to make things, not that way. I can actually make a difference. One funny, subtle little thing here. It’s like, this is, you know, a show set in England and the, the breads have a much more sort of liberal use of cursing, you know, it, and then than Americans do. And th that particularly shows on TV and that, you know, there is, this show is just like chock full of, you know, British profile and in, in, in a way that is like, you know, distinctive, and Ted never swears in the entire series until like what’s in the last episode.

2 (17m 34s):
And it’s a joke when he does, because it is funny. Like they they’ve done that. And so it’s like sticking mr. Rogers into this very course, sort of a male you, but it never is making fun of him because of that as well. And the

0 (17m 50s):
Characters make fun of him, but to show never does it,

2 (17m 52s):
The show never does. Yeah. The characters make fun of him constantly, but the show is on the other side. And that’s a fascinating, I mean, and it does feel genuinely new and subversive. And this time where, you know, the, the expected thing is taken down a peg and let’s find out what darkness he really has inside

0 (18m 12s):
Him. And he does have darkness, but

2 (18m 14s):
Yeah. But then it doesn’t define him. Like, there’s an interesting moment late in the season where there’s a character who one of the, there is a character who’s, This a British man. Who’s a Indian of Indian extraction, a hu or India. And he might Hours, it might be a Pakistani, I guess. So I’m not certain he’s a anyway from sort of a, you know, in Asia, in a, the British understanding of Asia. I don’t know where it specifically, I guess, but he is, what, what, what, what is his function on the team when he gets there?

2 (18m 56s):
He’s like

0 (18m 57s):
The steward, like the locker room steward. Yeah.

2 (18m 60s):
Yeah. And, you know, get some drinks and sets up the, you know, make sure that they’re Gatorade and stuff like that. I mean, it would probably be a caterer, but, you know, but it, in front of the first episode, Ted begins to elevate him until he becomes an assistant coach essentially by the end of the season. And there is a moment when, you know, and Ted like just been constantly nice to him. And there’s this moment where he, for various reasons snapped at him and bites his head off, you know, and if this was a regular show, it would be like, Oh, well, this was the moment when the wedges there and we are going to play this whole thing out. And then it resolves in a way that is very different from what you would expect, but also feels totally normal.

2 (19m 44s):
And it really shines a lot. You know, we are in essence, it’s like, well, I’m sorry I did that. You know? And, and, and it, it, it really shines a light on how much sort of drama, like the, the interpersonal drama that feels sitcoms is really very false. Like, you know, the O and now we are angry at each other and we’re gonna have to work through this. And instead, it’s just like, know this, you know, this is what life is, and you can overcome, and like minor things like this, don’t have to become a massive world. And the things that are even big things, like, it’s hard to talk about this without spoiling it, but the relationship between Ted and his boss, Rebecca played by actress, Hannah, Waddington had a wedding.

2 (20m 34s):
Him is really fascinating. She is like, created to be a villain character in many respects. Like that’s how she’s coded at the beginning of this and the way that they slowly sort of unpeel her humanity and the way that she doesn’t relate to. Ted just on a sort of, I’m the bad guy, you’re the hero sort of a level that a lot of the stories get told on is a real triumph for the show. Like their relationship is really fascinating on this. And she’s a great actress. My forecasts at Truman. Yeah.

0 (21m 8s):
Olivia award-winning.

2 (21m 12s):
Yeah. Yeah. And it does this thing that happens on TV a lot, ah, where you happened to have somebody in your cast who like, has this amazing voice. They like find a, find a reason for her to bust it out at some point, you know,

0 (21m 27s):
And it’s delightful. Well, I just, so, so I think the show is, is prophetic in its greatness. And what I mean by that is that a culture for reasons we have talked about ad nauseum has, has invited itself into division into toxicity, into a sarcasm and citizens, cynicism as a default. And what I mean by prophetic is that this is a, it’s the kinda the first show in recent memory that is, that is doing the opposite is calling people. I think intentionally I’ve heard some of the interviews with, with the folks involved in, in making it in their intentions behind it, a way that is calling us to sort of a different kind of behavior.

0 (22m 16s):
That is the first, I think, post kind of a post-Trump post me to examination of like what behavior can look like when we treat people like full human beings and understand them as full human beings and is doing it in a lot of different ways. I mean, it’s, it’s showing you a kind of leadership that is not toxic masculinity. It is looking at positive male male relationships, which we don’t see a, like super frequently a, you did mention scrubs earlier. I mean, that’s a, that’s a TV show that explores that very well, many moons ago, but we don’t see that a lot.

0 (23m 2s):
And we don’t see characters apologizing to people and having it land except is like a big payoff maybe later on in, in a pill. That’s the thing you get them.

2 (23m 13s):
But only after you’ve gone through a massive strum and drank kind of on the way to it, right. And this, you know, I love this show really from the very beginning builds towards what you know is going to be the eventual revelation. And he, you know, if you know anything about the way that stories work, you know, eventually Ted is going to find out that he’s been brought to England under false pretenses. And that he’s really been played upon in a way that’s pretty horrific. If you break it down. I, I, you know, he has his own reasons for coming his family life.

2 (23m 53s):
And it was a sort of deteriorating and his relationship with his wife is on its last legs and part, because she finds is a constant positivity really to difficult to live with as the sort of suggestion or application. But, you know, he, he’s done a lot to go there and it’s appended his whole life. And you just know when he finds out there’s going to be some, it it’s the bomb that your waiting to go off. And when it does, it’s so surprising and interesting the way that it’s handled and the way that it’s dealt with on the show in a way that feels, and this is the thing about it is uplifting, but it’s also entirely earned.

2 (24m 39s):
And that’s the reason that the sacrum in sort of nature of that doesn’t, isn’t cloying, you know, it, it earns the, the things that feel good about it because it plays fair and it’s smart in, you know, the way that it treats its characters and you know, it, it, you, you looked at that and things, of course it, doesn’t, everything doesn’t have to be terrible all the time. Everything doesn’t always have to know, the story has this sort of implication that everything’s always going to get worse. You know what I mean? And to see a story where, you know, even though bad things are happening to the people, treat each other well and are human to each other in a way that feels credible is an amazingly, it feels really good.

2 (25m 29s):
You know, it’s, I mean, uplifting in a way that is you no, not at all sort of false or, or, or cheap or stupid, which is the problem with so much of art that tries to be uplifting is it doesn’t play fair, you know, and it doesn’t earn it. And this show does, and that’s an impressive achievement.

0 (25m 57s):
I have found watching this show, my mouth drops open tears, come to my eyes, w like my heart, like leaps out of my chest repeatedly. It is shocking in it, in, in what it’s able to achieve. And Oh is one of the great, you know, I think all good R is supposed to surprise us and shock us. And in all of that, and this does it in a way successfully, repeatedly in a direction that is opposite what we are used to.

2 (26m 30s):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. Another one other thing about it that I think it was maybe under a remark, but I, upon I lived in England when I was a kid and have occasion to spend a chunk of time there in the year, since periodically, you know, when I was in undergrad, I spend a semester there and, you know, Jeremy you and I spent a class there in grad school, umm, for a couple of months and, and I, you know, and so I, and so I became sort of interested in British media and, you know, from an early age involves, just kept tabs on it.

2 (27m 17s):
And it’s hard. It is hard to do the American in England show. Like sometimes they push too hard on it. Sometimes they just get Think usually they just push you hard. It’s like just not quite right. And this is honestly probably the best American living in England show I have ever seen. Hmm. You know, as, as a, as a genre or, you know, the way they play with people’s expectations and the way that they don’t fall into a lot of the stupid traps that those stories often go into, but also the very knowing sort of way that they play with cultural difference between America and, and England is, is just really sharp at a deft and a very impressive, it’s a, you know, it’s a really good show.

2 (28m 10s):
People should watch it.

1 (28m 14s):
This is probably a show that I will rewatch and rewatch and rewatch. Yeah. My household only does that with one other show, which is a new girl and, and I think this is going to be our second. And so

2 (28m 27s):
Well, it’s just that you would say the new girl does have some things in common with this show too, you know, which is to say like a positive sort of a, you know, an attempt to let people be nice is, and while also actually being funny, which is, you know, tough

1 (28m 47s):
Watch it, let us know what you think.

2 (28m 50s):
Yeah, for sure. Right.

1 (28m 52s):
And you can, you know, if you’re, if you’re a binger, you can get it done in a couple of nights. If you’re not a binger, it’ll, it’ll uplift your every few days when you can get to it is a really great

2 (29m 4s):
Yeah.

1 (29m 10s):
If you enjoy the work of Sweet Tea, Shakespeare the number one thing you can do is log on to patrion.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare and make a monthly pledge. Those pledges start at $5 a month and they go up to $500. Actually, you can set whatever amount you want at certain levels. There are a great perks, including in-person tickets. And those include all digital access throughout the year. So if we have a streaming event, a streaming concert, that’s that normally we pay for

0 (29m 42s):
Patrons at the $20 level, just get in and they just get in. It’s a delightful, but that is the greatest way that you can show support to Sweet Tea Shakespeare and help us continue to do the work of this podcast. In so many of the other things that we do throughout the year, that’s patrion.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare. Well, moving on, we’re talking about the Trial of the Chicago Seven, which is a new, a release on Netflix, a written and directed by Aaron Sorkin corrector, Jack cast.

0 (30m 31s):
And so Rob tell us more about this, a new Netflix film.

2 (30m 37s):
So the trial is Chicago Seven, as Jeremy said, written and directed by a writer of screen stage and television, Aaron Sorkin eye is a drama dissertation of the Trial of the a Chicago Seven as the title implies the Chicago Seven were a group of activists in a, the anti-war movement in 1968, who were essentially leaders of the demonstrators in Chicago, the summer of the, the democratic convention in Chicago.

2 (31m 23s):
They were there to influence the leaders of the convention and to make it known that they were against the war, mostly young people though. There are some notable exceptions to that and that those demonstrations, which happened over a number of days during the convention, and eventually erupted into a violent riot in which they were clashes on the streets between the police and the demonstrators and Seven well, there was a group that was known as the Chicago Seven and then there was an eighth person as well, who for a moment was a sort of tried with them, but then eventually was not for reasons that are interesting.

2 (32m 7s):
And the story it’s about the Trial of those people who were the leaders of various different, basically unaffiliated groups who were all their at the, at the protests and who the Nixon administration, when they came in to power, wanted to make an example of by a staging, what essentially was a federal show Trial in which they were going to use this little used statute, this obscure sort of statute to prosecute these people and get them locked up for 10 years.

2 (32m 47s):
What’s the intention. And so it’s about the Trial of those people. And what happened at the trial is wild. Like in real life, just setting aside the, the story of the movie is insane. What happened in really right for dramatization. And so Sorkin did it. I was originally approached by Steven Spielberg said, ah, in, in a meeting said, I want you to write this. I want to make this movie in the Spielberg was attached to direct for years. And then eventually sort of didn’t in Sorkin with his blessing. Did do it. The movie is a Dreamworks production. So you see steel, Spielberg’s a, you know, a connection to the studio that Spielberg still is an owner of a so he’s, you know, still is a connected to it in that respect though, he’s not an active producer on it.

2 (33m 42s):
And yeah, Sorkin eventually decided to direct it. And the cast is unbelievable that they got together for this thing. Like you have Eddie Redmayne, Sasha Baron Cohen,

0 (33m 58s):
You were so great. And I love it. Michael Keaton, Franklin Gela, Mark. Rylance Jeremy Strong. I mean it’s a whole day

2 (34m 7s):
And yeah. And then a bunch of care and yeah, yeah, yeah. Abdul Mateen. The second who has, you know, a sort of exploded NP in the public conversation in Watchmen this last year and then great character actors like John Carroll Lynch or Ben Shankman is just this murderer’s row of amazing performers all lined up. I think because they all, you know, the Aaron Sorkin, everybody wants to do a Sorkin script, right? I mean, his, he is a great writer of dialogue and can really attract top tier talent because of that.

2 (34m 56s):
So it’s a big fat movie. It was supposed to be in theaters, but because of COVID ended up on Netflix instead, I think it is playing in some theaters as well though. And it’s an interesting movie. What did you think of it?

0 (35m 13s):
So, you know, the world is not that I’m on immense Aaron Sorkin fan. I’ve been addicted to the man since the West wing. I know that not everyone agrees with me. Th th th there is some controversy there, but for me, he, he’s just the pace, just one of the smartest writers who’s ever lived, and he has a formula and it works, and it involves sort of rapid fire dialogue and a lot of callbacks as the, as an episode, or in this case, a movie moves forward.

0 (35m 57s):
It’s always coming back to the beginning. It has some really interesting things with structure and flashbacks, probably one of the strongest writer’s in that regard, in terms of connecting contemporary occurrences in his stories with past occurrences and bouncing back and forth, it was just really adept at it. He’s a, you see that I think is masterclass on that particular one is a social network. The,

2 (36m 26s):
He was also in Steve jobs. He does a sure.

0 (36m 28s):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s just good. And of course he’s, he’s good at, has sort of came up and made his name in a sort of a courtroom drama, a few good men. And here you have a sort of another chapter of that story, of course, recently, and famously he had to have adapted to kill a Mockingbird on Broadway M and it’s just him doing his best work in, in this case with about the best cast, or you could get a job and it’s, it’s, it’s re it’s just really good.

0 (37m 10s):
It happens to be timely,

2 (37m 15s):
A coincidence. It is a total

0 (37m 17s):
Coincidence. I mean, it, it, it speaking to the issues directly of the protests we’ve seen in the last few months, there is a direct one-to-one correlation. It feels incredibly. I mean, if you, if you took the Vietnam war content out of it and replaced it with, with a black lives matter or, or something closely related, it would be absolutely politically a current, there are a one-to-one ties between the Nixon administration and what they’re saying about the Nixon administration and the Trump administration. Now, there are a one-to-one ties between disparate activist groups and public reaction to them.

0 (37m 60s):
One-to-one ties between sort of corrupt corners of the, of the justice department and did judicial branch then and now, and it’s amazingly and saddening Lilly contemporary relevant.

2 (38m 19s):
Yeah. Is it? That is true. I mean, in some ways, if you replace the, the idea Antifa as the sort of a catch all for what really is a lot of disparate groups who are really directly connected to each other, and don’t have an center for the, you know, radical left, which is what they are, you know, call them. And then in the media, I mean, that’s it, and that’s essentially the same fight. And the movie does give you this a sort of bracing window into what the future could hold. You know, the prosecution’s really do a gear up in the way that they have been a purported to be planned for in the next administered, you know, the next four years.

2 (39m 9s):
Sure. Trump win and what’s striking about the, a, about the movie is, you know, just how sort of nakedly on the proceedings are. And I have to say there there’s, there’s a documentary that exists called Chicago Seven, which is we’re seeking out. That is just about the Trial as well. And honestly, if anything, this movie downplays and softens some of the real brutality and insanity that happened in that courtroom in ways that are interesting.

2 (39m 57s):
And I think connect to a Sorkin I to follow up on something that you say, you know, I love Aaron Sorkin too. I think that he is an amazing writer. And as somebody who does some writing, you know, I, I feel like I need to say Aaron, Sorkin’s a better writer than I am. Like, I know there’s just no question of that. Like I a really, really am impressed with him is a ridiculous thing to do. He’s, he’s a, he’s one of the only writers writers who exist too, is, you know, a brand unto himself, right?

2 (40m 40s):
How many writers can you think of who, if you hear that, it’s like just the writer, Oh, I’m going to see that there aren’t many of them, honestly, Aaron Sorkin’s one are the only ones and working contemporarily. And for good reason, he is a ridiculously talented guy having said that I do have mixed feelings about some of his work sometimes. And he has these interesting sort of qualities to his point of view and his politics, or are interesting in a specific way to that from project to project, don’t always work out, right.

2 (41m 21s):
I mean, what he’s great at is a dialog. Like you said, it, like we said, and B also dramatizing disagreements between friends and people are working on the same team in a shared, you know, a and a shared endeavor for an eye, like a reason that’s rooted in their beliefs, in their ideals like that. That really seems to be like his, his project in a lot of ways, like how people who are nominally on the same page with each other and on the same a, you know, pursuing the same thing ended up in a terrible, terrible fights, but in ways that are interesting, you know, and also male friendship.

2 (42m 4s):
Like this is a very male heavy show in terms of a, well, how many, like there are maybe two women who is in the entire movie who are characters in any real way. One is the receptionist at the, a LA offices were, you know, defending the Chicago Seven. And the other is a woman who you come to find out as an FBI agent and even they are limited somewhat. Right? So it, you know, the fact that he is sort of paternalistic in many ways is a big knock against him in the public discourse, which is maybe true.

2 (42m 50s):
There’s a story that it plays to that as well, because there just weren’t that many women involved in the situation, the only thing is always about it as politics. That’s interesting is that he is like super liberal, right? I mean, he’s the man who created the West wing, which has this sort of dream of the liberal presidency, but he’s liberal in a sort of Clinton Nasser triangulated sort of way, which has to say, he’s the liberal man who has a tremendous affection for conservatives. Well, he sees, he sees an ideal conservatism to, and once it to be a part of the AIDS kind of out of step with the moment, though, right?

2 (43m 34s):
Like with the politics at the moment in which this is sort of a doctrinaire left sort of approach to, to, or point of view that everyone’s supposed to have about conservatives is that they are fundamentally rotten and that, you know, and that’s what so much of this weird election year has been about, like the left being furious at a, at the emergence of Joe Biden and the people who’ve liked him. And then Joe Biden slow sort of trudge towards dominance right. In the polls. And he’s, you’re going to win or not the next couple of weeks.

2 (44m 16s):
But, you know, you could say Sorkin is, is very firmly a Biden guy, as opposed to a Bernie guy, right. In the parlance of the moment and to be a Biden guy is extremely uncool. So it’s interesting that this is a movie about that very division between Eddie Redmayne, his character, Tom Hayden, who is the, you know, if were the surrogate for that sort of centrist or, you know, we are trying to influence the mainstream a, you know, point of view of left activism against Sasha Baron. Cohen’s Abby Hoffman, who is, you know, not just left, but is also an anarchistic.

2 (44m 57s):
And also, you know, and where Hayden is very sincere and sort of sober in his arguments. Hoffman is a, is a clown. Self-consciously a clown, you know, and is trying to be funny for a reason. And so a lot of Sorkin project here in this film is really, you know, trying to understand the difference between these two men in their different points of view. And you know, him as a guy who is the sort of, you know, moderate in temperament, which Sorkin ultimately is a very liberal, moderate, I’m making an argument for Hoffman.

2 (45m 42s):
And it’s interesting to see how he does that in this film.

0 (45m 50s):
Well, and I think specifically, he, he is making, he’s calling out the problems of the centrism in the facts of this case. How, how is it such that Tom Hayden is actually probably the person directly responsible for, for the not probably he’s directly responsible for it? Yeah.

2 (46m 13s):
Well, in the, in the telling of this story, the reality is more complicated, but that’s

0 (46m 18s):
Well, it’s interesting. He, he, he goes in that way as I was watching it. I mean, I want to go back to the sort of contemporary connection. I mean, this is, this is, as you say, it’s the Biden Bernie thing. There are a lots of things that come up about contemporary politics for me, AOC and the, the sort of spectrum of, of liberal politics and, and what’s sort of a law like how they are fighting with each other, but also how the right views AOC vs Bernie versus Biden and in all of that and which ones are all of them.

0 (47m 0s):
Right. Right. And, and that, that, that I’m Alexandra Ocasio Cortez is, is the sort of new poison that if you get too much of her mixed in with the, the people who might otherwise be rational and reasonable and a somewhat of the center, then, then that spoils everything. And you’ve seen a lot of that in the political ads, in, in arguments of the right wing at the moment, but that’s what was coming up for me in it. And I think I’m the type to that, you know, the, the, the Bobby Seale story part of this and the Fred Hampton story, part of this, about how so in case you are

2 (47m 47s):
Bobby, Sheila and Fred Hampton, horrible members have a black pair. Yeah.

0 (47m 50s):
The black Panthers, Fred Hampton famously assassinated by the FBI

2 (47m 57s):
While the trial was going on.

0 (47m 58s):
And the, the, what comes up is all of that, all of that, a part of the storyline feels absolutely contemporary. And the, the sort of, I mean, it’s, it’s in the film, it’s, it’s symbolic metaphorical, uhm, in E it’s of white-washing. I mean, that’s what it is. They’re a white-washing of the political left to include Bobby seal. And it’s amazing to, I mean, it’s just like it could of happened yesterday.

2 (48m 37s):
Yeah. I, you know, it’s one of the really deft, I mean, it’s true. It, it happened, but the way that Sorkin grabs on to it, you know, and, and his dialogue and interactions really dramatizes it. Bobby seal, who was one of the members of the black Panther party who spoke at the rally at one of the rallies surrounding these events, came in to town, spoke to, you know, spend three hours in Chicago. One of which he spoke on stage, got food and then went home and was nowhere near the City when the real violence and stuff happened.

2 (49m 19s):
And, but they put him in as a member of the Trial. Well, they tried to make him one of the defendants in this Trial because they, they were afraid that the defense that the defendant says they were, would not be intimidating or scary enough. And that if they didn’t put a black Panther in there or a black man, that if it would not cause enough animus to convince them, and he was never represented by The a lawyer for the Chicago, Seven played by Mark Rylance in a very, very good performance.

2 (50m 0s):
And this, in this film, but was forced to attend court. And he continually tried to object saying that his counsel was not present and he was not represented by the lawyers there. And the judge played by played by Franklin Gela. Judge Julius was a, just refuse to acknowledge that he wasn’t represented through the entire thing until it resulted in, in Hampton. We’re not happy. A seal continually kept saying, I’m not, I don’t have a lawyer here.

2 (50m 42s):
I should not be tried with these men until they gagged him. And the film, the gagging actually is just this one thing that happens fairly quickly in real life. He was gagged for a month in court and forced to sit there bound and gagged while not being represented by anybody until finally. Mmm. Well, you can see the film until finally he was removed from the Trial and no longer Forrest to be in it anymore.

2 (51m 23s):
And what’s fascinating about it is like to see the ham-fisted like completely open way in which they were attempting to say, like, these are all of the same people. These are all of the same situation. You should hate them all like the same and you should be afraid of them all in the same way. It’s, it’s shocking to think that somebody attempted to do so in such a naked way. And it’s interesting to see the way that it really does parallel the attempts being made right now to say, I know you think that Joe Biden is Joe Biden, but really he’s not Joe Biden. He’s, he’s Alexandria, Ocasio, Cortez, and they’re both, you know, Antifa, which is a, you know, which is a terrorist group that like take, and this idea that it’s like, they’re all, all the same thing, you know, and just hammering at this like crazy frankly stupid sort of premise to try and make everybody swallow it.

2 (52m 19s):
And it’s like, it’s all happened before.

0 (52m 22s):
Yeah, I would just add, so this is a really good, it is. As you mentioned, it is getting a little bit of a theatrical release. I think it’s a, we’re likely to see it as a best picture, a nominee because of that. I have to say some of the performances are, are a stunningly good, which tells me a lot about Aaron Sorkin as a director that I did not know. One of the things that’s interesting is sort of what to see what different directors and projects will do with Sorkin’s work because obviously most of the Cultural memory is about part of what was done in the West wing.

0 (53m 3s):
This is a different way. It is doing it on the same things. This is a little bit of a different pace, particularly in, in the performance is it is not the fastest Sorkin you’ve ever seen in your life. It is not Westwind speed. It’s something less than that, but not as slow as Moneyball, not as fast as West wing is how I would it, and it was really interesting to see what, what Director is doing with their own work in terms of plays and performance and things like that. But he’s great about getting really, really great performances out of this cast. Eddie Redmayne is actually very impressive in, in a pretty, pretty well,

2 (53m 48s):
Well, he’s the straight man in the group and yet still finds interesting notes. There

0 (53m 53s):
It’s really, really impressive. Joseph Gordon Levitt. It does just fine. Mark Rylance blows the doors off to the place as does Franklin Gella at Franklin gel, a real like absolutely steals the peace it’s. He plays the judge, Julius Hoffman, who, who is a cartoon in real life. And in this movie is a cartoon and Franklin jello is just like a freaking magician. I mean, I love all his work. I loved them in the Americans. That’s the last thing I think I saw. I mean, and it’s, it’s, it’s subtle. It’s good. It’s it’s I wouldn’t say it’s three dimensional because the character is not that well it’s so, so great.

0 (54m 34s):
It’s so great. Yeah,

2 (54m 35s):
That’s the thing that’s crazy about that character is he’s ridiculous and he’s galling and upsetting in the film. And the truth is he is scaled back in this movie from the reality of what the guy actually did and was, he was even more ridiculous, an even more irrational. If you look at the transcripts for the court, as the funny thing that actually happened in this movie, there is a kind of, a lot of that where Sorkin, whether it, it was because its like, people just won’t buy what actually happened. It will, people will think I’m being ridiculous. Like actually sort of made the, the anarchy and some of the sow sort of comical that they appear to be scripted moments that happened in the courtroom.

2 (55m 21s):
He, he doesn’t include them. And interestingly, like with Abby Hoffman makes him just a little bit more cogent in this than he actually, you know, which isn’t to say that Hoffman wasn’t a cogent, but it’s, it’s like he scales them back. Like Andy scales a lot of what happened back because I think the actual reality of what happened would be just unbelievable. I agree with you circuits direction in light of the actors is great. I do wonder if Spielberg had directed this like visually I think it could have benefited from that a little bit and sort of an eye towards how to compose this in a way that might’ve made it pop a little bit more, but you know, Sorkin, I think in film really is it’s the place where, you know, film and on stage, this is medium.

2 (56m 13s):
He does amazingly well, his scripts are really incredible. And you know, Moneyball, like you mentioned a Steve jobs, the social network and this movie, they are really excellent Holmes. You know, I think it was TV where it can be more inconsistent. Like the West wing is this amazing piece of work. And that’s where I became a fan of his, I think studio 60 and the newsroom don’t resonate as much with me for variety of reasons. We should, we should talk about sort of a tough time on his own, maybe about those, but you know, the pre interesting reasons, but it, this is like really top tier stuff.

2 (57m 1s):
Is this worth checking it out?

4 (57m 10s):
Do you love the Arts? Do you love Sweet Tea Shakespeare then you should consider being a guest on one of our podcasts for more information, get in touch with us@hoursatsweetteashakespeare.com that’s H O U R s@sweetteashakespeare.com.

2 (57m 31s):
Moving on to our final set, a segment here today, we are continuing our sandwich reviews today with the subway, Italian, B M a R T.

0 (57m 45s):
What does the BMT stand for? I don’t know bacon meat.

2 (57m 51s):
It is bacon. I don’t know what it is. It’s a problem with it. Yeah, it is off. And so I’ll, I’ll do it

0 (57m 60s):
My review here and then what we’ll get into it. So if you’re not following along, we have a scale that we use categories that we use. And so I’ll, I’ll go through my scores, my, my writeup, and then Rob we’ll do here is, and we’ll chat some more. So this is the Italian subway BMT flavor score three mouthfeel, one adjoining produce two bread, one meat to a joining sauces and condiments to Sandwiches aesthetic one complimentary items, zero contextual sleaze to appraisal of the cost to personalities night and to the sandwich, to the nature of the Sandwiches lingering.

0 (58m 44s):
And the memory is hero for a total of 18 points in a departure that didn’t matter at all from my usual reporting station in Fayetteville, North Carolina, while spending about four weeks in Marion, Indiana, while directing a production of Shakespeare a pair of Please. I visited the visited this small cities, only subway franchise stepped up to the glass in case meant and ordered. So it began a 10 minute ordeal in which I repeated myself slowly end and in English to fellow English speakers who could not understand me, who stopped my order two separate times to tend to, to other customers and to serve me a slimy sandwich.

0 (59m 24s):
Listen, despite what I’m saying here, I’m actually kind of a fan of subway and it’s many, many, many analogues in the culture when I say fan, but I like I can, I can, I can eat it. I don’t want to diminish what I think is Subway’s role in the culture. In many ways, subway has overtaken McDonald’s is the quintessential cheap American food place. And for good reason, in addition to putting healthiness at the forefront of its branding, which is an admirable and Nelson, a necessary thing in, in of itself, subway is the touchstone of the now handfuls of national and regional chains from potbellies to Quiznos, to Jimmy John’s, to Jersey Mike’s and many others.

0 (1h 0m 4s):
These establishment exist in part as a premium or at least a novelty takes on the subway model. But that’s not at all. If you like to poke LA Moe’s Qdoba mod pizza, or any of the other custom food chains, you Oh subway a slow clap because its insistence on personalization lead to those things in the greater market. And while I’m at it, that’s a pretty great reflection of America. As sub, as subway has been on the rise in the final third of the 20th century and first two decades of the 21st century individualism as expressed in fast food, the perception of freedom in a strip mall.

0 (1h 0m 45s):
But my experience was pretty freaking terrible. In this case, I ordered the BMT with tomato cucumber, black olive pepper, Mayo, and a dash of vinegar. It took me three times to actually get the olives. I got vinegar and oil instead of vinegar, my sandwich artist was distracted a couple more times taking a phone call and driveway orders. While in the middle of working on my sandwich, I had to repeat myself about things, which I hate. It makes me feel like this person isn’t paying attention. They aren’t, which is part of the problem. And maybe it’s because of this experience at the sandwich to me tasted like a slab of slimy, mildly flavored cold cuts with Manet’s my drink, a diet Coke tasted like Hi-C lemonade.

0 (1h 1m 28s):
And let me just say this subway. If you’re listening, you need more chip options. Okay. Thanks. Bye. In recent years, subway has raised its price is four from its famous once famous $5 a foot long and pulled back from it’s a novelty sandwich marketing and it’s locked into stale feeling accompaniments, Tom to get fresh subway.

2 (1h 1m 54s):
Ooh. So again, that is a key

0 (1h 1m 57s):
And that’s 18 out of 50 points from me

2 (1h 1m 59s):
At a 50 points for you. Alright, well I’ll get it into my review here. A subway, Italian BMT flavor. I give it seven points. Mouthfeel three adjoining produce two bread, one meat for adjoining sauces and condiments to Sandwiches aesthetic 2.5 complimentary items to points contextual sleaze, three appraisal of a cost for personalities nigh unto the sandwich. One nature of the Sandwiches lingering in the memory one for a total of 32.5 points. So big spread here.

2 (1h 2m 39s):
A subway is the band-aid of sub shops. The jello of hero purveyors, the Kleenex of hoagie joints, which is to say it is the default for fast food sub sandwich restaurants and its name has become synonymous with the generic product. Once upon a time summary or a sub was just one of many, somewhat obscure, regionally specific names for deli Sandwiches served on a long piece of French bread and asking for one outside of the upper Northeastern corridor of the United States would be met with blank stares, but to date well the name hoagie writer and hero are still unfamiliar. In many regions of the country. The pervasiveness of subway has made that particular a particular sandwich title.

2 (1h 3m 21s):
Ubiquitous. Everyone knows what a sub is because of subway. And even though they are still trying to escape the stink of their prominent former spokesperson, being a convicted pedophile, they don’t seem likely to be unseated from their position at the top. Anytime soon, when it comes to fast food restaurants, what does market dominance tell us about the quality of a given sandwich? Not much necessarily certain facts, a certainly a factor is other, Oh, sorry is certainly a factor is other than having the best product can contribute to a company’s success industry leader was slipping. McDonald’s big Mac performed atrociously in our rankings. And to be honest, I expected something similar from subway.

2 (1h 4m 3s):
The Italian sub category of this contest may be controversial for me because I’m kind of in the bag for another one of the competitors, which we’ll talk about it at another time and establishment that I patronize on occasion outside of my podcasts related duties. I approach to this evaluation with the snobbishness of a man who has a strong personal preference for a different sandwich. And my had, and in my head, the unfavorable generic alternative I compared it to was of course subway. Well, I was wrong. It turns out Subway’s position as America is preeminent sub sandwich place is in fact connected to the quality of the food it serves. And perhaps more importantly, how they serve it.

2 (1h 4m 45s):
I don’t want to oversell this. It is still just a pretty good sandwich, but it was better than I was conditioned to think it would be the subway I went to was the nice suburban neighborhood. And it had recently been remodeled along the sort of Starbuck’s adult contemporary line much at the same way. McDonald’s is a done nationwide from time to time here in a move that I can only compare to the rich, but uncool kid buy inexpensive pair of sneakers and the hopes that they will make other kids like him. On the other hand, it is all sort of desperate on the other. The clean sophisticated decor did make the place more appealing to me.

2 (1h 5m 28s):
Anyway, services find my sandwich. Artists was kind of Adobe dude evidence that it takes more than a superficial decor to really alter the soul of the place, but he got the job done. And here we come to the crux of the matter. Anyone can sell you a sandwich made quickly. They can even let you customize it by saying what you want at it. But subway real innovation was displaying the many possible ingredients and sandwich toppings right in front of you for you to choose as it’s being built. The many options for customization, along with the psychological effect of witnessing the construction of your sandwich in collaboration with its maker is a recipe for customer satisfaction. In this case, I’ve got the six inch of Italian BMT, salami pepperoni in Hamm on white bread, With provolone cheese and Mayo oil and vinegar and toast it again, nothing special, but it is satisfying to see your options in front of you and watched the sandwich I put together here, I’ve got a bag of salt and vinegar chips and a mug root beer and grab myself a seat.

2 (1h 6m 32s):
Again. This was pre COVID that this was reviewed just as an editorial. I love it here. So it didn’t affect it inside of the restaurant. What I’m not allowed to do that. Now the meat was flavorful and tooth. Some of the condiments we are just, what I wanted to read was fine. Coasting it, it made it better and paired nicely with the chips and the drink. I would do this again. I feel it’s worth noting that I definitely like this sandwich better than the Italian sub at Jersey. Mike’s. I can’t say at the meet a subway is qualitatively better than at Jersey Mike’s. I suspect that it is not, but the flavor was more intense. I also liked the bread better at subway, which is not to say that its great bread is in fact, I’d go so far as to say it is crappy bread.

2 (1h 7m 16s):
That nevertheless tastes pretty good. And there’s the rub of the sandwich is satisfying, but that as a Starbucks decor aside, I still felt like it is a decidedly downmarket affair, not so special. Subway is still subway and it’s not what I choose if I were being choosy, but the price is right. The deals are still pretty solid and the food tastes good. So under the right circumstances, I would choose it. Okay. So Jeremy you and I had very different experiences and a rankings here, but there you go with some actual, a tension here in our opinions.

0 (1h 7m 59s):
Yeah, I would. So I can’t remember the last time I went for a subway sandwich. I like the This review. I wrote, I mean, it’s been four years. I don’t know that I’ve been back to subway in four years. I think someone might’ve brought me a subway sandwich in four years. Yeah. But I don’t think I’ve ordered like willingly. Of course. Part of that is that for the last two years I’ve been mostly on keto. So, so bread and I don’t get along. I, as I say this, I think I’ve had a subway salad and it was just fine. But, but it, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not a place of choice and I, if I’m, if I’m going in the fast food route, I would much rather like I do find myself drifting towards a McDonald’s or someplace like that.

0 (1h 8m 48s):
If I’m going like the total sort of like fast food, fast food place. Right, right. And if I’m going for a sandwich or a custom food thing like that, I’m going up up the scale somewhat. So yeah. It’s just, it’s not for me.

2 (1h 9m 5s):
Well, you know the thing about subway, that’s interesting. And I mean, I allude to this in my rear view is it’s not a bad, like in terms of flavor. Like, and, and I think that that’s the real secret here to a McDonald’s or a subway. Two, one of these, a restaurant or KFC for instance, is another one that I think exists in this idea of these places that have really ubiquitous dominance all over the world. So like if you go to Saudi Arabia, you can get a subway sandwich. You know, if you go to places in Europe, you can find them, you know, and obviously all over America.

2 (1h 9m 51s):
And there is a reason that they’re popular and it’s not because the quality of the ingredients is like top-notch or whatever, but they have hit on something, a sort of consistency and a flavor that really works and has been in fact, chemically constructed to work in a way that people find it enjoyable. The comparison to Jersey Mike’s that I make in the review. And that, you know, we just talked about recently, I think it was instructed because if I was to be pushed, I suspect the ingredients are probably higher quality at Jersey.

2 (1h 10m 31s):
Mike’s like if we were, if there was some objective way of measuring that, that’s just a gut instinct. I don’t know that for a fact, but I will say there is a higher intensity of flavor at subway that may not be Natural in any way. Or do you know what I mean? They may not speak to the food actually being have a higher quality, but it is easier to eat. And that’s, what’s all, this is all about, right? These Sandwiches are about sort of triggering these chemical impulses and you know, triggering in a triggering an addiction response that I think they’re really good at well.

0 (1h 11m 11s):
And, and you, you, you bring in the, I think there’s been worked on, on this, but the, the smell of, of bread from subway triggers that response trigger, like that’s part of it’s. This is part of this marketing is like, let’s get the bread smell out there because that will draw folks in. And so when you say chemically constructed, I mean, you know, lots of bread smells good, but that’s, that’s specifically part of the marketing. Is that the idea that this is being made now for you, it’s fresh, all of that, its doing the things to your brain that gets you a locked in there. And that is not the same as, as the experience you have, when you go to say a higher end, a place like a, like a Chipotle.

0 (1h 11m 57s):
So there are no smells, you know, the bread place is sort of have that cornered in a way, for reasons having to do with their product, the Panera does it, the subway, does it not a lot of other places do. And even when you’re talking about some of these other sandwich joints, they’re not doing the same thing either. I mean it might smell broadly like Eastern, you walk in, but it’s not designed to sort of push that, that halfway down the airport and get your nose sort of chasing it like a subway sandwich

2 (1h 12m 28s):
Halfway down to the airport is right. But it really is like where subway lives. So it feels like in airports across the world, but yeah, no you’re right. And I think it extends even pass the bread. You know, the, the, the kitchens that they develop, these things in are really the sort of high-tech scientific marvels and the flavors there are carefully constructed. You know what I mean? It’s not like, Oh, this just happens to be what the pastrami tastes like or whatever. I don’t even know if they have pastrami there, but you know what I mean, it happens to be with the salami is here is like, no, they, you know, ad you know, a specific sort of smell compound like sense and you know, specific sort of flavor distillations into their mixes in order to achieve the specific flavors that they’re getting their, and you know, clearly something about it.

2 (1h 13m 22s):
It works otherwise they wouldn’t be a subway in every town in America. Right. It’s like, it feels like you can always get one of these things as well, because there is a, you know, consistency to it now is a good in some objective way, right. It probably not. Right. And also the fact that you are so sort of dependent on the, on the quality of the person who is making the sandwich for you is a potential problem here, you know, in a way that, you know, has everything to do with economics and the way that, you know, sort of the food industry and low wage workers are our are treated or what the expectations are of them are, which I actually think is, is an interesting discussion.

2 (1h 14m 20s):
That’ll that’ll come in to some of the places we’ll be talking about down the road. I think there are franchises that make a particular effort to like, or really say, OK, well not franchise businesses, companies that really I’m trying to cultivate staff. That’s pretty sharp. Someway in my experience, it’s not always from a Bennett. Yeah, it is not.

0 (1h 14m 48s):
I went to a central, a minimum wage.

2 (1h 14m 50s):
Yeah. Which is fascinating too, because it’s like, there’s a higher degree of, of, of sort of competence necessary to do some of this. Like in McDonald’s its like pull the thing is in the basket part of the basket, out of a thing, you take it out where the noise and then you’ll put the salt on it for 10 seconds. So there you have fries, you know, here it’s like, you really do have to like, you know, a whole bunch of different things. It’s like you were the one, put the thing here and do this, grab this chopped, you know? And it’s like, if anything, this is a place that could really benefit from some more skilled workers. And I’m not sure that they’re thinking about it in those terms.

2 (1h 15m 31s):
Well, I’m sure they are not.

5 (1h 15m 36s):
So I don’t know,

2 (1h 15m 38s):
Not that it’s hurting their bottom line. I mean obviously they found something that works for them. And I have to say like it’s a Testament to the fact that this is a successful company is, is that as I mentioned in my review, there is a place where in sort of living Joe commemorate, they are still associated with a man who was a horrendous pedophile that they made famous in the first place and his position from having been associated with them, allowed him to pursue these horrendous horrendous crimes. And they still came back from it.

0 (1h 16m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a, well, it w it it’s amazing. ’cause like the association of one psychology and food are the, I mean you enjoy one thing because you feel, you feel a strongly or, or you’ve not been disrupted psychologically with the product and you’re right. Life. They’ve managed to mostly erase that. I mean, the joke is still there, but you can kind of recover it as a brand.

2 (1h 16m 53s):
Yeah. Right. It’s amazing. The funny thing about subway too, they just, the last thing and in Ireland, I don’t even have you seen this story? I don’t know. Ah, in Ireland of the news recently.

0 (1h 17m 3s):
Oh yeah. It’s not bread is right where

2 (1h 17m 5s):
They said in court. They can not say that they’re food is because it’s too sweet and they have to classify it as cake. So in Ireland here, subway, Sandwiches our meat cake.

1 (1h 17m 23s):
Twitch

2 (1h 17m 23s):
Is this, it feels like this really trolling sort of ruling. It’s like Mike, who is the person who’ve made a point and I’m going to call it.

1 (1h 17m 37s):
Okay.

2 (1h 17m 38s):
You got angry enough at sub way to turn this into literally a case. So I don’t know how they’re going to handle that. Maybe they’ll just do their cake Sandwiches in Ireland and kill it.

1 (1h 17m 51s):
I imagine they’ll change the recipe. I mean, I remember it was a, I think the government sued the may be because the, that it had to do with whether like food assistance money could we spent at subway and, and it wasn’t meeting the nutrition guidelines because there was so much sugar in the bread. So my suspicion is that the bread, the subway bread in Ireland will taste different from the subway bread everywhere else, because they want the food assistance money. And so they will, they will be changing that recipe. That’s my,

2 (1h 18m 26s):
Yeah. I wonder if their infrastructure can handle that, like having to make that many changes. I mean, I’m sure that they’ve got people trying to crunch the numbers on that right now. See how that goes

1 (1h 18m 39s):
And we shall see we’ll follow it Irish by the way. All right. Thank you my friend. Thank you. We’ll do it again soon on a few more later Tata for now. Bye-bye one quick word about the After Hours you know, sometimes I get into these conversations with Rob and I’m like, what does this have to do with Shakespeare? And the answer is sometimes directly not much. There’s not much that we talk about it has to do with Shakespeare, but I still think there’s value here because what we do when we deal with Shakespeare is look at an artist who is responding to his own culture, time, period, politics, popular music, other plays.

1 (1h 19m 30s):
And so After Hours, it may be the most different most out there thing we do. There is not a really strong Shakespeare or theater tie to what Rob and I talk about all the time, but I still think it’s valuable because when we’re looking at Shakespeare, we’re looking at an artist and how they responded to their world, to their culture, to their politics, to their entertainment. And so by Rob and I engaging in those kinds of conversations, I hope you can begin to see what artists are doing in responding to our own contemporary culture and begin to see the connections there. Sometimes we do have a direct tie to Shakespeare and that’s great. Sometimes we don’t and that’s great too.

1 (1h 20m 11s):
Another thing I would love for you to understand about After Hours is that the opinions expressed in it are the opinions of the individuals involved. If they don’t represent Sweet Tea Shakespeare you may hear things about politics or about your favorite film that you just violently disagree with. And I want you to know that that disagreement is Welcome Sweet Tea Shakespeare gathers people around a common table. Those people don’t have to agree. They don’t have to be cookie cutters. They don’t have to have the same interest. In fact, the conversations are richer and deeper when they do not. And so even if you find yourself disagreeing, vehemently with something that said in any one of our podcasts, but especially in after hours, take a deep breath, pull yourself up to the table and know that we value your contribution as well.

1 (1h 21m 3s):
We’ve always loved to hear from you. We always love to fold in your perspective and we want to do so in a healthy, productive way. So again, if you hear something that’s like, I don’t get this, this doesn’t seem too Shakespearian to me. That’s OK. We’re just artists sitting around a table, figuring out how to respond to the world. We’re glad you’re here for it.

The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours | Boys, Boys, Big Macs

Join actor and Hollywood screenwriter, Rob Gibbs, and Sweet Tea’s Artistic Director, Jeremy Fiebig, on this After Hours podcast episode as they discuss their current TV obsessions and mac on The Big Mac. 
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well   by  spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight  in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.
You can find our whole catalogue here.
The Hours are only possible because of regular support from our monthly sustainers and patrons. Please consider making a monthly pledge on Patreon. With options beginning at just $5, and plenty of great perks, you’ll find a great way to join the STS family.
You can always contact the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com.
JOIN our Facebook community here.
The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.
Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.
Consider following us on social media: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Twitch
This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina Arts Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural Resources.

The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours | Charlie Brown, Election Countdown, and Sandwiches

Join actor and Hollywood screenwriter, Rob Gibbs, and Sweet Tea’s Artistic Director, Jeremy Fiebig, on this After Hours podcast episode as they dissect Charlie Brown’s The Great Pumpkin (it’s almost Halloween!) and count you down to November’s Big Election. Both things include something orange! To keep with the After Hours running theme, they also give you some interesting Thoughts regarding their questionably good eats. Cheers!

Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well by  spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.

You can find our whole catalogue here.

The Hours are only possible because of regular support from our monthly sustainers and patrons. Please consider making a monthly pledge on Patreon. With options beginning at just $5, and plenty of great perks, you’ll find a great way to join the STS family.

You can always contact the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com.

JOIN our Facebook community here.

The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.

Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.

Consider following us on social media: FacebookTwitter, InstagramYouTubeTwitch

This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina   Arts  Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural   Resources.

 

 

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1

00:01:10
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare after hours, where we offer to you in depth conversations, insider insights and a sneak peek behind the scenes were here. We’re here. Hello? Hello, Rob. How are you doing? I’m all right.

0

00:01:32
Well right. How about you, sir? Is so good. I can’t even, yeah, well that’s maybe better than me, but I’m doing okay. Good, good. You know, it’s a low key day. We have a hurricane blowing through a leftover a hurricane. I should say wearing my blanket, trying to keep warm is good. Yeah. Well we got a few different things that we want to talk about today.

0

00:02:04
So we do, we’re gonna, we’re going to talk about Charlie Brown pumpkin’s yeah. This week and politics. We’re talking about Jersey Mike’s when you get to our sandwich reviews. It’s true. This is all very exciting. Yeah, it is. You know, ah, as your weather discussion indicates, we are moving into the fall here is sort of definitively. And now that we’re in October The Halloween times or are upon us to at least they are at my house, my kids have been really excited about getting decorations out and whatnot show.

0

00:02:42
We are in the midst of that. And one of the big parts of Halloween, at least around these parts, his, the annual watching of the Charlie Brown peanut, it’s a Halloween special. Its the great Pumpkin Charlie Brown which a I’ve watched and realized

2

00:03:00
Is a fascinating text. And there’s all sorts of interesting things to talk about with regard to that. So I elect if this is a topic of discussion for, for us today to introduce it to us, if you would okay. Having to do so. So it’s the great Pumpkin Charlie Brown is one of the classic holiday specials. The second holiday special that was done by Charles Schultz and the peanuts people, the first being the, the Christmas special, umm, which is also interesting in its own way.

2

00:03:42
Maybe when we get closer to December, we should have a discussion about that one. Cause that’s interesting too, but, but yeah, it’s the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown was The a second of those produced in 1966, a for the first time and it has been a staple of a television Ray wearing on CBS every year. Since then we didn’t watch it on CBS.

2

00:04:14
You don’t think it is aired there yet. It should air a little bit later. Umm, but we just a sort of watched it on streaming, something like you do these days and my kids enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed it as well, but it is an interesting counterpoint to the Christmas special in some ways in which I guess we should talk about and a very subtle, not parody, but there is a satiric element to it that I think is in counterpoint to the Christmas special, which we can talk about a little bit later, but it’s about the peanuts gang Charlie Brown Lynas Sally Snoopy and loosey in particular and the other various people enjoying the Halloween holiday and a line us up the sort of sober-minded philosopher of the group waiting for the appearance of the Great Pumpkin who is supernatural being in of some sort who blesses children with gifts and a candy.

2

00:05:22
If they have faith in him and wait for him in the most sincere pumpkin patch and a so Linus is fruitless weight for the Great Pumpkin is a encounter point to the other. Kid’s how Louie in activities in Snoopy being off and his own sort of crazy adventure, a pack a lot into 20 minutes or 25 minutes, it’s just an impressive economical piece of storytelling, but a that’s the broad strokes of it. What are your thoughts and feel well?

2

00:05:53
And I’m a big fan. Let’s let me just get that out there. I love this special for a lot of reasons. What are your thoughts, feelings or relationships with this, with this piece of animation?

3

00:06:05
I, I, I also love it. It’s to me it lands is a L as a adult. Whereas the, the Christmas special seems like it lands a bit younger. There are some like when I say adult, it’s not like they’re, I don’t know.

2

00:06:26
Well, peanuts, I mean, Charles Schulz is sense of humor was always oddly complicated, especially given that it’s supposed to be children’s entertainment and that comes through in a big way. The Halloween special it’s they are in the Christmas special too, but it, you know, there is a somewhat, there is some sort of John just interesting sophistication happening in the

3

00:06:49
Yeah. It’s so I, I noticed that I, it, it does what it does, what the Christmas special does to, which is sort of create a tone that matches the season perfectly and invite you into that mentality and that space. And that’s, that’s one of the reasons I like them, both you are, you’re sort of referring to the satire peace of this, which is a way that the line is character who is here.

3

00:07:24
His is a little bit more earnest than, than, than even Charlie Brown in, in most of the other things that we see them in is, you know, following the great Pumpkin and it is the way the piece lands is a sort of, I mean, I don’t know, it’s like atheist ambiguous where as the Christmas special is definitive and Christian.

2

00:07:58
Yeah. And line is just to make clear what we’re talking about here in the Christmas special, you know, it’s all about the a, you know, Charlie Browns disaffection with a holiday. There is a, a, an adult aspect to that too, actually, you know, in, in that one, he feels very disheartened and, you know, disaffected by a guy, what he sees as over commercialization and sort of an emptiness around the holidays as a sort of on We that is connected to that.

2

00:08:30
And it’s all surrounding the hustle and bustle of getting this Christmas pageant a, you know, together, which feels very sort of nonreligious in its, in its effect, like in the, or, and its content, the particular, a Christmas thing that their doing with all the kids and as a client and a also Charlie Brown and trying to find a good Christmas tree, which he has a hard time with. And I’m, you know, the climactic moment, all of that Christmas special is Linus who again, is sort of the wise philosopher character steps forward and says, I can tell you what Christmas is all about.

2

00:09:06
Charlie Brown like, After, he is mournfully wailed. I don’t know what this is for. Why are we doing this? And he quotes passage from the Bible detail. It, well, the King James Bible detailing, you know, the birth of Christ and a, you know, a low there were shepherds and, you know, the fields and a, you know, bring it on to you, tidings of great joy in E it, its like this, you know, minute or maybe a little less than a minute of primetime television where he’s a guy, you know, reading the IRD, residing scripture out to people.

2

00:09:47
It even in 1966, this was weird, like, and a little out of step. I mean, Schultz was a believer. He was Christian, but had a very complicated sort of relationship to is Christianity. And it was, you know, cynical and very dark and depressive. And this is the sort of unambiguous moment of him being more sort of just sort of an uncomplicated in, in the past.

2

00:10:23
It was expression of that, which a is a part of him, but you know, whenever there’s something sweeter or something like that, he tends to cut it. And there aren’t a lot of moments of him being overly religious in his work with peanuts. And some people remember this a lot like in wine has, is doing that. They don’t remember the Great Pumpkin as much, which is really, and apparently this is true. If you look at it wine in this position of fruitlessly looking for the Great Pumpkin to come as this act of faith was in part Schultz’s response to the way that whiteness had been portrayed and the Christmas special, which is to say like Linus is, you know, sober and earnest and faithful as he is in the Great in his, like in his expression of religiosity in a day in the Christmas special.

2

00:11:25
And those same qualities are in his like undying faith and the Great Pumpkin, which is the dumbest idea that there could possibly be and the entire Christmas special or no, the entire Halloween special, everybody in town, this is the dumbest thing ever. It’s just you’re. So it is, you are an idiot. You are a blockhead in the parlance of a peanuts for believing the Great Pumpkin. He will never com and he is a laughing stock of all the children and all the adults who they talked and said, Lucy is a trick or treating fir for a line of us and says, can you give me an extra piece of candy for my dumb brother?

2

00:12:08
He is waiting for the pump. The Great Pumpkin to arrive is like in line, it says haul a, you know, a spiel about, Oh, ha we have to go to the most sincere pumpkin patch, which is the craziest ambiguous like idea. And Charlie Brown is a little sister, a Sally who is in love with him is a, you know, this, Oh, I believe you. And then she gets increasingly angry over the course of the night as she’s missing trick or treating and the party, the Halloween party, because she sat waiting for the great Pumpkin, who was never going to show up.

2

00:12:43
And it ends with her like chewing Linus out and leaving him on his own in the pumpkin patch and all of that. I mean, it really was like the other side of Charles Schulz is a sort of ideas about spirituality and religiosity. And if you take the two of those specialists together, it has an interesting message.

3

00:13:05
Yeah. I would just add to that, ah, the Christmas special, which I am more familiar with, but does this iconically Mmm. Which is hit a melancholy tone about the season in ways that the other The that not a lot of other pieces of pop culture do well, a the borough live stuff does to some degree sometimes, but I think this is, this is the, I mean, literally it provides the soundtrack of that melancholy take on the holiday, right.

3

00:13:45
And,

2

00:13:46
And miss time at the Christmas time is here song being the sort of embodiment of that.

3

00:13:52
And Great, Pumpkin hits that note too, in the end, because it’s, as you say, a fruitless search on the part of Linus for the great Pumpkin who spoiler alert, never shows, and it is not an upper of a watch. I mean, it’s it’s well, and it’s, it’s got some charm, but like it’s, it’s not what I would call satisfying. And it,

2

00:14:18
When the railway, well, you know, I mean it, well, because the main throughline and the whole thing is the great Pumpkin the weight for the grade. Pumpkin turns out to be a total bust. And there’s funny things and interesting things happening, but it is like dour in depressive in some ways. But also very funny to me, I, I think like in, ah, you know, in addition to Linus is waiting for the Great Pumpkin to arrive the kids all go trick or treating, and Charlie Brown who is hapless in everything he does, like first his ghost costume when he tries to it’s like an old know peanuts, you know, old school, a school, like take a sheet and cut two holes in it for your eyes ghost.

2

00:14:59
He somehow manages to cut like a dozen holes into his, his costume. And then when everybody else goes trick or treating somehow randomly, instead of getting a piece of candy at every door, a somebody gives Charlie Brown of rock. And so their kids after each door go in and compare what they got is that we got a piece of candy. I got bubble gum and Charlie Brown is on it. I got a rock at the end of the night. He inexplicably has a bag full of rocks, which is, I mean, I there’s the thing like the profile we found darkness of peanuts, you know, relative to what people like ideas or thoughts about it.

2

00:15:42
AR is fascinating to me. It’s like, Oh, peanuts is so cute. And then it’s like, no, it’s not. I mean, it is a profoundly melancholic. And you know, clearly, you know, piece of work that is clearly the work of a depressive man, like Charles Schulz is, is so clearly a, a deeply depressed person. And, you know, peanuts is probably a big part of how he dealt with that.

2

00:16:13
And then, so, so you’ve got on the kids are unrelentingly mean to Charlie. Brown like when he, you know, it Charlie, Brown story begins with the iconic Lucy holding the football. And this is the first time in animation that this had been portrayed. She is saying, come on, Charlie Brown cupcake the football I’ll hold it here for you. And he’s like, no, every time you do that, you pull it away. Hey, I’m just going to run out, run real fast, you’ll pull it away. And I’ll land on my back and kill myself, which is red by a child.

2

00:16:48
Actor. Voice is like, wow, this is like getting right into it. Re the very beginning. And you said, no, I won’t do that. Says, look, I’ve gotta sign it document that says that I won’t do that. Is that a signed document? Well, if there’s a signed document, then you, how can you go rock? And then he goes running and she pulls the football away. He flips through the air lands on a bit on his back and the screams. And then she says, the funny thing about this sign document, it wasn’t notarized. And she goes walking off. And I mean, well, there’s a, you know, a whole bunch of our business and a real deep sentence of them.

2

00:17:24
This is for trading in that. And then there is just unrelentingly, like religion, well, mostly made to them. And he said, Oh, I’m going to a Halloween party. And Lucy says, ah, if you got invited was a mistake, there is a list of people whose should’ve come and a list of people not to be invited. And if you got an invitation it’s cause you were on the wrong list. And then when he finally was at the party, I said, Oh, Charlie Brown, I’m here. All the girls wanted to talk to Charlie Brown and he was like, so happy about it. He said, send on this share for a second. Is that it? And then they used his like huge round bald head as a model for the jack-o-lanterns and the wife in the back of his head draw a like grotesque jack-o-lantern face before they start cutting into the Pumpkin.

2

00:18:02
It’s just one awful thing after another. And Lucy loves stabbing that Pumpkin, it’s so funny,

0

00:18:13
Right?

2

00:18:15
I mean, there’s such clear characters and then Lucie is like really hostile and unpleasant to everybody. And when she’s describing the, the, you know, bobbing for apples is sort of obnoxious and then does it, and has this amazing moment of like Snoopy is hidden inside the apples and like has the one in his mouth that she, that she grabs and a half. And she freaks out when she sees it and screams, Oh f**k.

0

00:18:46
I got, I tucked dog lips. Ugh, poison dog. I’m sorry.

2

00:18:51
I mean, that’s the thing people think about Peanut’s is being, you know, Sweet and cute and kind of boring, but the deep weirdness of this cartoon, I don’t think it’s enough credit. It really doesn’t block poison. Dark lips is an amazing line of dialogue. Especially when you hear it from the mouth of a small child, which is who reads it A special, I mean, it’s its this enduring oddness that people don’t pay enough attention.

4

00:19:28
Can you feel like I love it

2

00:19:31
To me then the other like element of it is, is Snoopy, who is like this bizarre moment of like weird historical whimsy is he’s pretending to be a world war one, flying ACE. And we have this, this crazy diversion of him like, like pretending to fly his, his, his dog house in its this like long sequence, more than a minute of a hymn, then a hiding and sneaking across occupied France

0

00:20:07
Or, or

2

00:20:10
A, you know, looking for a place to you. It’s just such a profoundly strange thing. And my favorite part about it at the end is After Linus. Hasn’t, you know, the Great Pumpkin hasn’t come. He is been regarded as a total boob, you know, Charlie Brown and him are at the wall talking Charlie Brown said, well, this was a terrible, all I get was, you know, we went trick or treating got a bag of rocks. And I said, dad, the great Pumpkin never came.

2

00:20:41
And Charlie Brown says, well, don’t worry about it. I’ve done lots of stupid things in my life and minuses stupid, stupid. It says, I’ll show you Charlie Brown next year, I’m going to go find a pumpkin patch that is real sincere. And I’m going to sit down on it and you’re all gonna see. And it ends with Linus, angrily. Ranting is the credits are going. And again, this is supposed to be like the philosophical wise spiritual.

2

00:21:14
And this is response to somebody saying, yeah, that it was a weird, supernatural, believe you have is real dumb. It’s just so you are in any way. And it’s like, so a Charles Schultz give it to, can you take it away from your, you know, from your spiritual, whatever characters. It’s pretty interesting. One other funny little note. Oh, you have anything else you wanted to say about no, go for it. Go for it. One other funny little note about this.

2

00:21:45
I a N a here in California, we have Knott’s Berry farm, which is a theme park owned by Cedar parks, I think is the name of the parent company. And they have parks all over America. Umm, and the characters that they have at these are the peanuts gang. And one of the, it shows that they do around Christmas time is this like, Big like peanuts on ice show in this big theater or, and whatnot.

2

00:22:14
And they a it’s a funny counterpoint to the Christmas special, like a one line just gets out there on stage. They recreate that moment of him reading or reciting this scripture. There is, there is a funny little, a is not funny. There is a, you know, again, the way that it’s shot, the way that it’s done is, is Def for a spiritual moment because they have a spotlight on him.

2

00:22:45
But it’s just a kid saying this thing. They don’t gild the Lily at all with it. And it does have like an interesting, profound little impact whether you are, whether you believe it or not. It like zeroes in on the nub of the idea that makes Christmas enduring. You know what I mean? And it manages to effectively effectively communicate that. I mean, it’s a, it’s a good little piece of filmmaking. There’s funny and all mostly because it’s very simple and it’s very quiet.

2

00:23:19
And even though, you know, it’s the center of the thing, you know, there’s not a lot of pomp and circumstance around it. And as soon as it’s been said, they just move right pass. It was funny at Knott’s Berry farm on the show when they did it. Like when he’s, you know, one can imagine a theme park crowd, you know, in that show when you’re there, when he starts reading that scripture, like as soon as it’s, there is a long sort of applause like rafter, this applies from This, you know, audience that uhh, is like, yeah, somebody’s saying something spiritual in religious and Christian, are you in this weird ferocity that they had a company that moment and the thing where you feel like something’s been lost in translation here in this would be Charles shelter’s nightmare.

2

00:24:11
If you were to see this play out in person a anyway, go see this Christmas special or well the Christmas special, but watch the Halloween special while we’re hearing the season. It’s Great yeah, I do.

3

00:24:28
Well, it, it, it, it will stream too. I think I read, I’m not sure.

2

00:24:32
Yeah. It well, and every year it plays on CBS. And so it’s going to air there, but it’s streaming. You can find it all over the place.

3

00:24:37
Well, enjoy that. You do. It gets the time. If you enjoy the work of Sweet Tea Shakespeare the number one thing you can do is log on to patreon.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare and make a monthly pledge. Those pledges start at $5 and they go up to $500. Actually you can set whatever amount you want at certain levels. There are great perks, including in-person tickets.

3

00:25:10
And those include all digital access throughout the year. So if we have a streaming event is streaming concert that’s that normally would pay for patrons and the $20 level of just get in. They just get in. It’s a delightful, but that is the greatest way that you can show Support to Sweet Tea Shakespeare and help us continue to do the work of this podcast. And so many of the other things that we do throughout the year that’s patreon.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare.

2

00:25:49
And because it’s the fall season in a year that it is it’s an election year. We are coming ever closer to the Big presidential and everything else. So I should 20 something days. Yeah. 21 days from us we’re recording today are 23 days,

3

00:26:13
A little more than three weeks and a half.

2

00:26:17
What a freaking nightmare

3

00:26:19
It’s been. I mean, it’s also,

2

00:26:21
It is weird, but it’s been super weird in the last 10 or 15 days. Yeah. The weirdest time, I don’t know. I, you know, those would be who are allowed with us. We didn’t know what’s going on, but if you’re listening, they are watching this a day later, we are a little more than a week out from president Trump having been diagnosed with COVID-19 and everything

0

00:26:44
Crazy that has followed from that. I, I, it is funny. We talk a lot about a year. People talk about like, Oh, the writers for this a year really are, are doing it themselves. But it is crazy the way that this like plays like this whole election has played, like, as it is being written by somebody trying to like form a narrative just in terms of, and this’ll be the third act or a veil and wow.

0

00:27:15
Its a doozy.

3

00:27:18
Yeah. And on top of, on top of the COVID diagnosis, which is,

0

00:27:22
It was a strange four for a second,

3

00:27:25
A five or six day window had the vice presidential debate, which is great

0

00:27:29
To the strangeness. Yeah. So I must say that was a pretty normal vice presidential debate. All things considered. Well,

3

00:27:39
It was, but like to me it’s well it was normal except for the fly.

0

00:27:45
Yeah.

3

00:27:46
Beautiful, beautiful writing. If that’s what we’re calling it, she’s a lovely poetry. And also I think the best criticism I’ve I’ve encountered about the vice presidential debate is that it, it, it presented as normal, but you had to buy the sort of Pence, a side of things, which is that, you know, were in a normal time, normal presidency, he’s a normal Republican and everything’s just fine.

3

00:28:16
And if you bought that, then it was normal, but you kinda had to not load in any other information, regardless of which side of this, you know, at what point on the spectrum you’re on, you have to sort of operate in a, in a vacuum in order to make that work

0

00:28:32
Some ways. No, you’re right. I mean, it’s fascinating for watching Mike Penn sort of present essentially a normal affect and you know, a put a mainstream face on what’s a decidedly, strange administration for a Republican or it let alone, you know, the country and a, you know, trying to sorta normalize everything that that’s happened. And he’s, he’s a pretty smooth operator in terms of being able to sort of get up there and make things zeal.

0

00:29:06
I just say, well, I’ll just business. As usual has the world is burning Mike around us in all sorts of bizarre ways by, you know, aesthetically, it was normal, which is interesting. Cause so few things at that level ever feel that way anymore. So that was interesting. It’s been funny to see the people while we’re talking about the, the vice presidential debate, like people talking about it in the aftermath, I should have looked at a lot of commentary from both the left, had the right, the right, like very solid that like Mike Pence one, this debate, he won it, you know, on the, on the merits and are the points.

0

00:29:49
And boy that Kamala Harris is unlikeable. And you know, it really kind of highlighted that in concert with what’s going on with the Senate in the judicial nomination of Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme court, like really highlighted this aspect of Republican is, and conservatives in America right now that they think is interesting, which is so yeah, he won. If you already agree with him, you know what I mean?

3

00:30:23
Actually, I, I feel the same way. I, well, I will say for about three quarters of the debate and the way I would describe it is that each side one sure.

0

00:30:34
Which is, which ultimately means that buy one because they, it didn’t change the dynamic, but yes.

3

00:30:41
Right. I like, I think you, in a container you could watch it and you come out feeling good about your side. I mean, I think that’s, that’s it, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t move the needle. Umm, and it hasn’t moved the needle. I think that the, the trajectory that we entered into when Trump CA COVID, we’re still in, yeah, we’re still rolling.

0

00:31:08
It is his poll numbers or are you

3

00:31:10
Are still on a downward move in? And I don’t think that the vice presidential debate had anything.

0

00:31:16
I don’t think it impacted that at all.

3

00:31:18
Right. But about three quarters of the bait, the way through the debate. I do think the quality of it changed a bit from, well, a lot of is because of the fly. I’ll be honest with you. I think that had the fly not landed. We would be

0

00:31:35
Nobody would nobody, would we be talking about it at all? It is the only thing of all of interest that happened in, you know, so there’s that. But then to hear like this sort of really, you know, confident feeling like Republican sight, there’s just nothing there. And now the Democrats did their own version of this too. So I don’t want to just say that Republicans are the only ones doing it, but it, but I do see like Democrats engaging with some questions a little bit more like Kamala Harris in her self presentation made a choice to do these very sort of demonstrative, facial expressions and response to, to pants.

0

00:32:18
Now I think they’re Natural for what its worth. I think that it probably is a realistic sort of response. It’s just, they’re polarizing to the extent that if you’re on the receiving end, either in person or by proxy as a person on pencil side of these sort of weathering contemptuous

2

00:32:40
Looks, you are going to hate it. Right. And I think

0

00:32:48
It is, it is, it’s a tool, right. It’s meant to dislodge you it’s meant to a meeting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think its comes from her legal background. That’s the way that she,

2

00:33:01
It does what she does. Yeah.

0

00:33:04
Yeah. It is off putting if you’re on the receiving end of it. But there are a lot of people that that’s super satisfying for like, you know, scrolling through Twitter for every right wing person who is just driven mad by them. I, you know, a ton of people who are just reveling in this sort of, you know, feeling of somebody from you

2

00:33:22
Finally to say it,

0

00:33:25
But he’s facing that administration actually showing them that they’re unhappy with it and that they think it’s silly. And so its a wash there and its the inability

2

00:33:38
Of it like it

0

00:33:41
Because of conservatives in this race to recognize how are people who are not them are responding to things like Democrats don’t have that problem this year. I think they had it well in 2016 with Hillary, but everybody is like Democrats are so, so keyed up and terrified of the same thing happening that happened then that like they’re examining things from every possible, you know, place like I’m talking about public Democrats like politicians and media and people are, you know, are constantly worrying about these things and thinking about them and Republicans are just going forward in this crazy sort of seemingly unselfaware, you know, fog that is just like, wow, I, and, and given the fact that Donald Trump is their nominee, its, it seems like a massive dereliction of duty when it comes through at a big way in the Amy Coney Barrett debate were all of these people like S you know, I don’t know how much of its a put on are, how much of its honest, but either way it’s, it’s sort of galling.

0

00:34:54
This response is like, well, they just won’t answer a binding and a Harris won’t answer whether or not they’re a four court packing or not. And that’s just unbelievable that they won’t do that. And the idea that anybody’s talking about it at all is incredible. And it’s like, God, give me a break. So like, what do you think brought us to this point?

2

00:35:12
It’s like, you know, the The

0

00:35:16
Irritation over that and the outrage over that when this is all happening, because Mitch McConnell took into his hands powers that he had in the constitution, but which did break norms in order to get there. And then to be furious at the prospect of other people doing that too, you know, is galling. It’s like what it’s like. So exactly at what point is sort of the, you know, the flouting of norms that are technically allowed within rules, you know, within the rules for the purpose of advancing your political position.

0

00:35:57
When is that? Okay, and when is it not? And it seems like,

3

00:36:01
Well, that’s the expedient for you? I mean, that’s, that’s, and that’s, that’s how things have operated in these last gears. I mean really since, since somewhere in Obama’s term, right. I’m sure where the, the, the game change and, you know, it was a lot of a filibuster stuff’s in the Senate related to judicial nominations and executive nominations on the hole. And some are some changes. There are some rule changes. I think we’re gonna see more and more have it.

3

00:36:33
And, and some of it, it breaks down. And some of it’s a kind of an overlapping circle with the ven, a Venn diagram with the electoral college complaint as well, where these a, a sort of stodgy, potentially rules of the Senate play just are not in, not in favor of the majority of the country anymore, where they, they are ment in something that can be argued like a good design to protect rural States.

3

00:37:10
But they, and if, if that was the extent of it, I think no one would have a problem with it, but they’ve been so exploited in recent years that I, I, so to go back to your original thing, I mean, it, it was frustrating to me to sit there for the second debate in a row and here the democratic candidate not answer the question, because I think the EF the, you know, the thing to say, if your, that Democrat is, yeah, we are going to pack the court and here’s why we’re going to pack the court.

3

00:37:44
Cause you didn’t play by the rules of America.

0

00:37:46
Yeah. That’s a problem. They can’t do that though. I mean, there’s a way to thread this needle, which is, I, I am irritated Biden, didn’t say something along the lines of this, which is honestly what Chuck Schumer said, basically putting this on to it. It’s like if he said I’m an institutionalist, everybody knows who I am. And everybody understands that I would prefer not to be going down this road. And I would prefer that we keep things the way that they are having said that under the circumstances we are dealing with people who have been pretty ruthless about this. And I don’t want to a say something that I’m, you know, say a will or won’t do something.

0

00:38:21
And after to go back on it, like the Republicans did with a judicial nominations. And I don’t want to take anything off the table because this is a difficult situation. It’s a high stakes negotiation and well, I’d prefer not to have to reach for that. It would be irresponsible for me to say, you know, preemptively, we’re not going to do X, Y, or Z, but let me be clear. I would prefer that we not have to do that. Please don’t make us being the application.

0

00:38:54
And I think that that would probably put to bed. It’s a little weird that they haven’t said something like that. But also, you know, I, you know, it’s funny when this came down and when the court question happened here with Barrett, a potentially taking Ginsburg seat, I had a hard time getting too worked up about the Republican’s decision to move forward.

0

00:39:24
Cause it’s like, I’m of course they AR and the Democrats would tu the thing to be upset about was what happened in 2016, not the fact that they’re doing what they’re doing now. They lied that, you know, it would of been a different thing to if at the time, if at the time McConnel and then everybody else has just come out and said, we have the right to do this. This is what we’re going to do the end. I mean, there’d be an honesty to that.

0

00:39:55
That’d be difficult to argue with and, and that’d be upsetting, but it also wouldn’t like the fact that they raised the specter of, Oh no, no, this is a, there’s a honest and forthright and good in keeping with norms, reason why we’re not going to do this and then just ran ride over it. We have the opportunity came about. I mean, that’s, it’s just ridiculous. And it’s frustrating to, because it’s like, again, conservatives tell themselves a story that they are the heroes and they are the aggrieved party.

0

00:40:31
And especially when it comes to like court issues, like the Robert Bork, you know, nomination that, that crashed is this original sin that they feel like allows them to take any measures whatsoever from now until forever. But the truth is McConnell has been far more ruthless in terms of the way that he’s, you know, employed and, you know, employed his prerogatives and flattered norms. So like everybody talked about, well, you know, the Democrats are the ones who is, who blew up the Vito, but you know why they blew up the veto, like the specific case that prompted that was when McConnell was drafting legislation to a shrink the size of the appeals court in California.

0

00:41:24
So as to make it less powerful, you know, and, or, I mean, like they were looking it’s like they were looking to undo norms, their, and it’s like, and so they go, Oh, they balked him from doing that. And this was also in the context of them stonewalling, every single judicial nominee that Obama set up there, it looks like, I’m sorry, but this has gone back and forth far too much for anybody to credibly say, you know, they started it.

0

00:41:58
And we’re the ones who we’re just participating in the fight. It’s such a stupid juvenile argument. Now we’re just in it forever and ever. And I find it very difficult to be sympathetic at all too, like, well, yeah, you know, McConnell was exercising his prerogatives, but, but this is really too far. No, no Tea Tut, you know, sorry, how dare you and you’d get, get it over it.

0

00:42:29
Its like, this is where we live now. And if you don’t like it, then let’s do something about it. But pretending that there’s moral high ground to be seized in this argument is infuriating to me. That’s my weird little rant. Sorry.

3

00:42:47
Well I’m, I’m right there with you. I’m interested to see. So a I’ve been following a lot of stuff this week and one of, one of them is about ah, the, the, the comparison of the polls now to the polls in 2016 and how actually Biden is underperforming

0

00:43:09
Compare in certain yeah. In certain, by a certain metrics. Yeah.

3

00:43:12
By a certain metrics. He is, he’s an underperforming, a Clinton, you know, in, in, in, in what were then swing States in AR to some degree this time To, I’ve been following that and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it, it works through the advantage of both sides, right? So, so one gets a rosier picture then may be reality. And the other one has, you know, has they had a little fire under them to, to close out the next three weeks where, where I’m landing these days is that I’m, I’m reasonably optimistic that, that the Biden Harris ticket we’ll win the election on the electoral side, as well as the, as the popular vote.

3

00:44:01
I think the popular votes, basically a foregone conclusion at this point, the electoral college is behind that. But my a, maybe a terrible prognosticator, which is good. A because I think my prognostication is that we will see several months of violence and instability as a reaction to the Election and the sort of I’m the denial and anger phases of 12 steps of and returns to it in response to a loss.

3

00:44:37
I have our hole, some sliver of hope that Trump is building things now so that he alone will be the decision maker. As at least as far as him and his 38% of the country, he will be the decision maker. He will look at it. He will say it’s a loss and he will be able to do it. And it will be his magnanimity that allows the election results to go forward.

3

00:45:11
It’s like, I can see him saying, you know, it’s, it’s going to be screwed up whatever that is. I was, that was my like this.

0

00:45:18
Well actually, yes,

3

00:45:21
I dunno. It’s half, it’s half up a ton Corleone. The, I can see him doing that. I can like, he has tried to destabilize the, the ballots, you know, absentee ballots, all of that. And I could see him losing somewhat badly and saying, you know what, this was everything I said it was. But out of goodness of my heart, I’m going to

0

00:45:52
Peacefully transfer power. I could see that. I see that happening too. I mean, it’s really going to depend on how this all shakes out. Like I think it’s not inconceivable that there is a result that’s so lopsided in, you know, by the newspaper that Trump can seeds out of the night, if that were to happen. I think he probably would because what, you know, what’s the game at that point, right? It’s like they are, that’s not crazy life.

0

00:46:23
And I think there is I who knows what percentages are, but there’s a possibility that that happens that on the night, you know, Biden has enough votes that the Election gets called on national television. The way that it usually does a, the night of the election. That’s possible. I dunno if its likely, but it’s possible. Umm, it’s also possible that the Donald Trump actually the wins like B you know, the reasons you talked about when it’s just, it’s just going to depend on and what follows is really going to depend on how, what the margin is and what States are in contention.

0

00:47:08
If there are in contention after the Election like it’s, I’ve never seen an election like this before, you know it in my political consciousness, I’m sure there have been other ones, but they had never been something like this before. And I wonder part of me wonders that people stomach for a really

3

00:47:31
Bugging out and the aftermath of this is going to be tempered, you know, by the freakouts about it, that appreciated it. It may be, people are like, well, we won’t do that because that’s the thing that everyone has been saying. Or maybe it, well, I dunno, it’s a truly of in the air. Yeah. I, I think there will be blood. That’s what I think.

3

00:48:01
But you’re occupying the, a apocalyptic position, this Oxy apocalyptic position. I do think that the back and forth, I think the, the, the somewhat mild or a B, well, it depends on what, what you categorize is as a apocalypse. But I, I do think that the proud boys side there will be yet, we will see more like to Gretchen Whitmer thing and we will see versions of that. They are not with governors, but we will see violence.

3

00:48:33
Umm, and we will see that the Charlottesville thing. And we will see that kind of thing emerge again on the left. I think we’re going to see what we saw all summer, a different expression perhaps, but certainly rallies and depending on what happens, we’ll just see what happens. I guess. I think I wrote Facebook recently that like somewhere in America, there may be a person who went into a coma this week and who won’t wake up until sometime in 2021.

3

00:49:05
And I can’t say that there’s not a part of me that doesn’t to be that person a little bit ready to be able to skip over and rip van Winkle for the next few months. Things like it would be an amazing luxury.

1

00:49:26
Do you love the Arts? Do you love Sweet Tea Shakespeare then you should consider being a guest on one of our podcasts for more information, get in touch with us@hoursatsweetteashakespeare.com that’s H O U R s@sweetteashakespeare.com.

3

00:49:44
I guess we’ll probably just talk Sandwiches okay. Andrea Sandwiches in our ongoing discussion of fast food, a Sandwiches and our ratings on them. We have a lit today, a Jersey Mike’s and their original Italian sandwich, which we will give you are ratings. And our reviews of you wanna kick this off their Jeremy. I will. So we, we score these in, in several different categories. I’m going to go through each of those categories and list my points.

3

00:50:17
And then I will talk about the sandwich experience. So I have flavor six points, mouthfeel, two points, adjoining produced, two points, bread, one meat, three adjoining sauces and condiments To Sandwiches aesthetic three complementary items, one contextual sleaze To appraisal have the cost three personalities nigh unto the sang, which to the nature of the Sandwiches lingering and the memory minus two for a total of 25 points out of 50, this is one of the highest ones I’ve done so far.

3

00:50:56
I liked my Jersey Mike sandwich. If it was indeed a Jersey Mike sandwich and not a Jimmy John’s sandwich or a Quizno’s sandwich or another Sandwiches just like it from one of another hundreds sandwich shops. Yup. The problem here with the journey Mike’s Jersey Mike’s classical Italian is that the sandwich is utterly incompletely forgettable, the Jersey Mike’s in North Ramsey street in Fayetteville North Carolina, his in a strip mall next to a tanning salon and a mobile phone store next to a bank and a hotel.

3

00:51:29
It is the definition of a nondescript chain chain sandwich store. You can’t call it a joint or even a place. The sterile interior is every airport restaurant you’ve ever walked into no character, no joy, just the sandwich and the Sandwiches unremarkable and underwhelming. Jimmy John’s has a sandwich with meats. And man is that actually tastes like something that a Jersey Mike’s classic Italian is more akin to eating nothing. The only flavor is from having the sandwich Mike’s way, which is the brand shorthand for add some vinegar and oregano, which is Sweet redemption.

3

00:52:08
What is Sweet redemption for Jersey Mike’s is not it’s cold cut Sandwiches but it’s hot Sandwiches takes on the Philly cheese, steak, chicken cheese steak in a few other With meets that are actually grilled on a flat top of a short few feet away. This option, not the microwave toasted subway or Quiznos or the cold cut only Jimmy John’s is the thing that sets Jersey Mike’s part from the others as a chain. And if I could give bonus points for these Sandwiches in this competition, I would, but take more market share and a sandwich, heavy market Jersey Mike’s needs a soul at its locations and some fresh ideas, four sides, bagged chips and free prefab cookies.

3

00:52:55
Don’t cut it.

2

00:52:57
All right, solid a analysis there. I want to point out that we give our reviews, our ratings and our reviews to completely separate from each other because we do hit some themes that are similar in both of these, which is interesting to me. We didn’t know that, ah, as I will show you now where my take flavor five points mouthfeel 2.5 points joining produce 1.5 bread, 1.5

0

00:53:26
Meat, 2.5, joining sauces and condiments 1.5 Sandwiches aesthetic 2.5 complementary items. One point contextual, a sleaze, two points appraisal have the cost three points personalities nigh on to the sandwich. One point the nature of the Sandwiches lingering in the memory zero points for a total possible points of a total of 24 points out at 50 possible points. So a very close to you in my ranking as well. So let’s talk about the word adequate theoretically in terms should be neutral.

0

00:54:02
I actually know adequacy suggest at a certain bar of acceptable quality has been met. So I guess it’s better than that. Something may not be exceptional, but if it’s adequate, then theoretically, it’s perfectly fine. Why then do my memories of this particular sandwich, which I would characterize as overwhelmingly adequate take on a decidedly negative cast in the book of revelation, chapter three, we read that in Jesus’s opinion, a person who, whose faith is lukewarm as opposed to cold or hot causes.

0

00:54:34
So much offense as to make our Lord and savior or ones, Lord and savior at any rate metaphorically spew said person from his mouth. This passage illustrates definitively for some, the principle of how I think being middling or okay, can ultimately weigh against it more heavily than if it was simply terrible. And I am sad to say that this is the fate that has befallen the object of our examination today. The original Italian from the establishment of one Jersey, Mike purveyor of submarine Sandwiches it was all right by this claim.

0

00:55:10
And then a offensive service unremarkable, the sandwich, not bad. It comes with provolone, ham, prosciutto, capicola, a salami and pepperoni on top of which I got Mayo, cherry pepper, relish oil vinegar, oregano in onions, and they skipped the lettuce and tomatoes. They are fine. The bread was fine. I accompanied this with a root beer and a packet of salt and vinegar chips. They were pretty good. I am living in the center of a black hole of crushing boredom. As I recite this to you, listen, it should have hit my sweet spot, put in the Italian sub on your menu.

0

00:55:45
And I will order it. Nothing was overtly offensive about the sandwich, but if I went back to Jersey Mike’s I would not order it again. And that is messing with my head a little bit. Our Italian subs really good. Do I actually like them as much as I think I do. I have only one memory of enjoying other versions of this sandwich from other establishments to reassure me that there are better ones to be had the white be hard pressed to tell you exactly what it was that was wrong with this one that has left me unsettled and irritated in any event in the future, I’ll be looking elsewhere to fill my Italian sub needs.

0

00:56:23
So they’re we are

3

00:56:24
They’re. We are. Thank you. I mean, so here here’s the issue for me. It CA it comes down. I think To environment, environment, and maybe service, I think had had those elements been in place. I probably would not have thought that the experience was boring or in your words adequate. It, it does feel so for a, for a brand that calls itself Jersey, Mike.

0

00:56:55
Yeah, I know, right. There are really putting yeah.

3

00:56:57
Begging for an authentic experience, you know, that’s, that’s like, Oh, there’s a guy behind this.

0

00:57:04
Write the New Jersey. It’s like, it’s such a, a Italian kinda, you know, big step forward. It’s like this better be a really good sandwich. Yeah.

3

00:57:15
Right. Its not in the environment is just every Jimmy buffet place you’ve ever walked into. Except not as, not as Jimmy buffet. It’s just not the full Margaritaville. It’s just like some Palm trees painted on the walls. Yeah.

0

00:57:28
You’re assuming we’ve walked into Jimmy buffet places, but okay. So point conceded a fair it out. We should talk about Jimmy buffet at some point in time.

3

00:57:37
Can I be for, from, you know, it it’s just a, it’s a, it’s the, the, the baby boomer, salt and pepper hair guy with the, the flip flops and the, the bad hat and his shirt is a, is a vented fishing shirt and he’s over tanned and he’s on his second marriage.

0

00:58:01
Well, we are learning some things about whoever it is that runs to Jimmy John’s over and over again.

3

00:58:05
Well, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of quasi tropical it’s beach oriented so that the Jersey Mike Think, even though it’s, you know,

0

00:58:14
Bike, the Jersey shore is what you’re thinking here about yet here.

3

00:58:17
It seems like certainly the decor where, where it has that sort of beachy vibe.

0

00:58:24
That’s interesting because that doesn’t really exist in the one that, in the ones that have gone to here, that, that does throw a different dimension into it though. But I honestly, I think the problem is a sandwich. It’s just okay. And you know, looking ahead to other Italian sub, so we have ranked in this competition and that I’ve had since like there are better ones, they are, that are legitimately better and this is really just okay. But I do agree with you the context really probably ways on that a lot, like again, name of the place Jersey Mike’s, you know, it’s like Jersey Mike’s, but the thing we really do are a Philly cheese steaks.

0

00:59:07
So what sense does that make if they call it Philly? Mike’s I think I wouldn’t be upset about it. Do you know what I mean? It’s a lot, not as if a New Jersey is the place that you go to get, you know, cheese steaks Sandwiches this is the problem.

3

00:59:22
You don’t go to New Jersey for anything on the culinary side. Right?

0

00:59:26
Well, there are some good pieces of, to be had a new journey. Right?

3

00:59:28
Well, I, I like you, when you think about pizza, you’re associating it with New York, you’re associating with Chicago st. Louis, you know, there is nothing that I can think of on the culinary side that you’re associated with.

0

00:59:41
Exactly. Receipts things and so on,

3

00:59:44
What are you buying there? You’re buying or the personality of a New Jersey and

0

00:59:48
Right. And it’s like, all right, give me a good sub here. I mean, I would S I will say though, that like the expectation that the Italian sub will be good at Jersey Mike’s does sort of come with it. So I guess it does sort of communicate that. And then it’s like, man, this isn’t even as good as subway. It’s like, what are we doing here? It’s a, it’s a problem. I know.

3

01:00:13
Well, I do, I do love the The the hot sandwich option.

0

01:00:16
Yeah. There’s good stuff there. Yeah. I’m you know, but not this one, man.

3

01:00:23
No. And I will say just, I don’t know if we’re getting it to it. I can’t remember if we’re getting to Quiznos, but like I Quiznos used to be a go to place for me. Yeah.

0

01:00:30
There just aren’t that many of them anymore, they are like sort of retreated from the market place to a large degree

3

01:00:36
When they were a hot meat, hot sandwich place as well, but that they didn’t hate their meats that way.

0

01:00:41
Hi. Right. They had the salamander oven that they would send the sandwich through at the end of having finished it. That was their real innovation to the, we make Sandwiches for You thing on a national level. It’s like, and then we toast them after it’s done.

3

01:00:57
Yeah. And Jersey Mike’s, you know, they are, they it’s a hybrid, I guess, between, you know, like they’re actually cooking the meat on a grill, like, Oh, I’m going to grill like a grill. I’d be thrilled.

0

01:01:08
It really is like a Philly cheese, steak place more than it is anything else it’s just confusing. You know, when they talk about it as the thing that it actually is, which, or as the thing that they’re calling it is, it’s just, it, it is confused. And its weird because both of our reviews, I feel like there is this underlying hostility to it for a sandwich that’s not bad. You know? I mean, I know it’s not bad. It’s fine. I mean honestly like our rankings of this are relatively high in compare.

0

01:01:39
There are totally middling, which is really where, how I would characterize This it’s all right. If I add one of these Sandwiches again and it’s not like, I’d say no, I won’t eat that, but there’s something really unsatisfying it in comparison to what the expectations are. So they’re we are, we did it. We did it.

3

01:02:01
So everyone out there in, in Sweet Tea Shakespeare internet land, thanks for checking us out. We will be back next week. Next week we were talking about the boy’s in the band, which is a Netflix adaptation of a Broadway play. A and we were talking about the boy’s the Amazon series. So a hang around for that. And we’re also talking about other sandwiches, the big Mac. So you’ll see us next week at around the same time, Sunday evening.

3

01:02:36
You’ll see us for that. Ah, if you have things you want us to talk about some time, if you have questions, you, you want to ask us, if you would like to be a guest where perhaps you come on the screen and we a judge you in a way that we judge Sandwiches, there are politicians, there are other pouches, there are other possibilities. So we can do it. We would be happy to have you on and to get in touch with us. You want to visit Sweet Tea shakespeare.com or you can email us@hoursatsweetteashakespeare.com.

3

01:03:08
That’s H O U R s@sweetteashakespeare.com. We loved to have You meantime. Umm, if you haven’t done it already hop on the Apple podcast and give us a rating,

1

01:03:21
Give us five stars. Say, how are you?

3

01:03:25
Good. We are. And it will, you know, we’ll just trickle through it.

1

01:03:28
We’ll get, we’ll get more,

3

01:03:30
More famous as we go. And, and that’s what I like. I like like mild internet fame.

1

01:03:38
Sounds good now to do that. Okay.

3

01:03:41
Well thanks everybody for joining us. We will see you slash talked to you next time. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

1

01:03:54
You’ve been listening to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare After Hours thanks for joining us and for being a patron. If Sweet Tea Shakespeare catch you next time.

The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours Throwback Edition | Punishment Culture/Rate My Sandwich

In this previously aired After Hours segment, Rob and Jeremy discuss punishment in America and review an Arby’s sandwich. Trigger warning included for prison rape mention, pedophilia mention, and sexual assault mention. Political views expressed are that of the individuals speaking.

Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well by  spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.

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The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.

Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.

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This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina  Arts  Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural  Resources.

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1

00:01:06
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare After Hours where we offer you in depth conversations, insider insights, and a sneak peek behind the scenes. Hello, sir. Are you today? I’m okay. Are you, you know,

0

00:01:29
We went and did some, where did you call exercising? I’ve taught a class. That’s been to spin it spin. Okay. Right. Alright. How about, you know, a I’m fine. I’ve got some, a work that I’m been procrastinating on. We need to focus in on. So I’m hoping that that gets done today. A sit down and do some writing stuff I’ve gotta get done.

0

00:01:59
So fingers crossed, I’m sitting in front of a computer now, so that’s like halfway there, right? A it’s halfway there are going to help you to procrastinate is worse than to answer that question. A bit of a way to get my mind rolling and then roll on into the next thing. That’s that’s the plan anyway. Well, got a few of different things to talk about today.

0

00:02:30
Jeremy the first one that we sort of hit on. How did we come to talking about this actually is about a America is culture of Punishment. I think it was a Facebook comment to you on something I posted is yeah. This idea of a, that Americans in particular, but it is probably broader than are very attached to, to punishment, to the idea of a punishment.

0

00:03:09
And it seems to cross sort of all sectors of our society. And, you know, I, I, and in some ways is a problematic and strange and at odds with, ah, our goals, I really that’s my thesis, but we need to dig into this idea that we live in a very punitive Culture and a punitive moment.

2

00:03:33
Yeah. So yeah, I’m, I’m this touches, but is not what we’re going to talk about. I think touches on, but is not the same as in my mind, cancel Culture sure. Although a D but I think their, a Venn diagram w with some overlap edge, umm, of course the, the recent developments in cancel Culture have to do with JK Rowling, who we’ve talked about and some authors at Harper’s magazine and others is a co-signers on, on a letter that came out of the summer about Council Culture and ah, this is not really about that.

2

00:04:17
That’s not really, this is not really it, but, but to say what Council Council Culture is sort of like, ah, there’s a version of it that does feel punitive. And, and so there may be some overlap there, but I just want it to name that I’m not out here complaining one direction or the other back Council Culture I’m really, Tea, we’re really talking about the punitive nature of, of our culture as a whole.

0

00:04:44
Well, you know, cancel Culture is the authority issue like a question of whether it actually exists or not is in a debate a and what exactly it means and how it’s a applied in whether it’s correctly labeled when people are talking about it, all of that. Yes. Stipulated. We are not specifically talking about that, but you know, the idea of canceled Culture of being cancelled for having done something inappropriate. When we talk about cancellation, we can figure out what that means.

0

00:05:15
But yeah, it is a Punishment right. The idea of being punished now, or, or it could be now some people I suppose, would say in response to that, now this is simply about, you know, consequences, accountability. Yeah. People being accountable and people should be held responsible for the things that they do. You know, a lot of what people label is canceled Culture others would just simply say, that’s the market working the way that it’s supposed to.

0

00:05:48
The irony of that, being that right now at this particular moment, the people who complained the loudest about cancel Culture in our society generally tend to be conservative. And a, the big charge there is that people who are complaining about cancel Culture are really just complaining about the market working. You know, for instance, if there are companies are or what not that choose to disassociate themselves with somebody who are disconnects the relationship, that’s a market mechanisms.

0

00:06:23
That’s somebody saying I don’t want too, you know, I wanted to appeal to the most people possible and keep my business afloat. And so therefore I can no longer deal with this person in that the people who were warning about that are really being hypocritical or in many cases, because their often supposedly pre-market advocates, but cancer Culture is one thing. I mean, they’re, there are.

0

00:06:53
And in some ways, you know, the idea of the left being sort of the main punishers of people is that somewhat is, or it has been like this counter-intuitive idea, you know, umm, in, in the culture or at least in my liberal people, the idea that the right four that people in this country like the right quote on quote, really a loves the idea of Punishment is almost so obvious when that need to, you know, that doesn’t even need to mention it with which we almost did in this situation.

0

00:07:34
Like a, you know, I’m if we want to look for manifestations, I mean, Punishment, you know, the, the president of the United States and just about everything that he says and does is looking to punish somebody that was his primary means of whatever, but you know, between that and the idea of cancelled Culture broadly, I think what prompted the initial comment that he made on Facebook about this is that it’s a, it’s a broadly held impulse in our society, the impulse to punish people and the idea that that is an effective way to okay, what you want to affect change.

0

00:08:21
And I’m just very skeptical of that.

2

00:08:24
Yeah, me too. A and it makes me think, so the places I’m drawn to in this, you know, I mean they’re, there are sort of macro societal things in terms of Punishment and I think it’s, I think Punishment is, is in part how we frame elections. I’m Think that’s what, what sort of dirty politics is, is, is sort of using negative ads, say to punish your opponent, sometimes you’re punishing them for their past.

2

00:08:56
Sometimes you’re punishing them for their associations. Sometimes you’re punishing them for their, for their preferences or whatever. But I think so politics is one area. Certainly the way we deal with, with a war defense is a biz punitive. The way we deal with policing, which brings us back to this whole summer. But we were coming out of is, is punitive. I mean, like we look back at Portland, we look back at, at the interaction between police and, and citizens.

2

00:09:31
There are some Punishment going on there. I think our criminal justice system is also about Punishment. I mean, a not to put, to find a point on it, but we’re not, we don’t generally talk about say rehabilitation or reconciliation when we’re dealing with those things. I’m not saying it’s not there. I’m saying that the default is, Punishment not a say a restorative justice has a different model.

2

00:10:02
Right,

0

00:10:02
Right. And, and that that’s a good place to really dig it because you’re right. America in particular are our orientation to prison. And the justice system really is punitive. A really is about punishing people more than it is, as you say, rehabilitative or, or a restorative in their systems that our, that, you know, they exist in the world. A lot of them in Europe, Scandinavian countries in particular tend to take that approach.

0

00:10:37
And I mean, the one thing that you can say there is that those cultures, like even on a per capita basis, they have a much lower incidence of a violence in, you know, horrendous things that theoretically, you know, the justice system is intending to a way to address. I it’s a human impulse, you know, too, to punish Ann for there to be consequences, levied on behavior that is wrong and that’s not inappropriate necessarily, but there is this, you know what, when we talk about Punishment, I suppose we should find terms it’s C idea of enacting should a vengeance or a, you know, or making somebody suffer for the specific intent of, you know, that serving a purpose and, and of itself to, to either change a behavior or simply because it is fair that someone suffer, you know, then this question of whether it Punishment changes behavior, I’m skeptical of that.

0

00:11:57
I don’t think it’s a great way of shaping people’s actions. I, you know, that there can be a degree to which that, you know, the threat of suffering holds people back from certain actions and a also can be a teaching tool to keep them away from it. I grant that, but in the long run, if that’s like the only thing that you’re using, I don’t think that it ends up ultimately being effective.

0

00:12:28
And that, that is something that we’re really invested in. Yeah.

2

00:12:31
Yeah. Culture yeah. And, and a, another way of sort of extending that terminology is for me, and this is where it becomes problematic is that it’s, it’s a, it inflicts trauma, if it is an intentional and fact inflicting of trauma in, and for me, as we learn more and more about sort of the effects of trauma across a person’s life across generations.

2

00:13:02
I mean, that’s why, why I think it’s so troubling for me is like, regarding a sort of almost regardless of whether it’s merited and it lowers, there is a whole debate there about that can be had about, you know, I, for an I, or what’s a, what’s a reasonable response to this, you know, prison term or whatever it is, but the, the idea that society would choose to inflict more trauma as a, as a way of resolving prior trauma is a, is the part of that troubles me.

2

00:13:40
Yeah. And, and, and the, for me, this, this goes from some of those sort of foundational things like criminal justice or a politics or something like that, because it, it, it also in fact, but a sort of interpersonal lives and communication and a, and then of course, because we have it in our interpersonal lives and relationships and families and offices and coworkers and things like that, because it’s they’re to it, it feeds those other things above it in, in those systems.

2

00:14:14
So it’s like this, this thing, that’s, you know, the, to use the overuse term, it’s this a vicious circle where things are, are feeding on each other and it it’s, it’s our, it’s our, it’s sort of what we’re built on at this point.

0

00:14:37
Well, and it, yeah, that’s right. I, I think that’s true. I mean, w we don’t want to overgeneralize it from situation to situation. It’s not as if every in every arena of this works exactly the same way as a, sometimes you do need sort of zero in on a specific context you’re talking about, so a not to oversimplify, but a, I think that what you’re talking about does create a general orientation that ends up seeping into, you know, many different aspects of our lives.

0

00:15:16
You know, the Political, I think his, a place for this is particularly problematic. They feel like the, the punitive impulse exists in politics to a large degree on, on all sides of our different political debates. You know, umm, you can look at the election for instance, and of Donald Trump as primarily a punitive at all.

0

00:15:48
In fact, you know, I’ve said this before, but a, the thing about, about Trump that is interesting as a phenomenon is that he’s not great at sort of giving his voters the things that the Political ends that they want. Mmm. In a way that is unique to him, which is to say this like any Republican who ran in 2016 could have, okay.

0

00:16:30
The political ends that Donald Trump has accomplished would have given them the legislation that they liked, that they have gotten, for instance, the economic legislation that was largely spearheaded by Paul Ryan, when he was speaker of the house, he, they would, he, any Republican would have, you know, allowed they’re to be the court appointments that have been so important to Republican voters, you know, in, in having him there.

0

00:17:04
And then I, it, as an open, there are some issues on which Donald Trump is sort of unique, I suppose, within the Republican party on a certain economic issues that he has sort of pursued, but not pursued a specially. Well, you know what I mean? Like the, the anti sort of that I’m going somewhere with this, this, this is the, this is going to land. I promised a, you know, the, the, a, the economic things that we were sort of heterodox in, in his, ah, you know, pitch two Republicans he’s pursued them, but he, hadn’t got a great job of effecting in change with them.

0

00:17:49
And then on all the other issues, he’s, he’s in the, and on the issues that I mentioned, he’s largely been more, you know, damaging to his cause than any of the other options that were on tables for Republicans, for an event. And really every case, because he’s, he’s a terrible politician and he’s, I’m not good at getting things done unless a, and so it all doesn’t make sense unless none of that was actually the point, unless the primary reason to why Kim is because he will make people suffer that you don’t like.

0

00:18:37
And then,

2

00:18:38
Well, that’s my entire theory about, about that election was that it was a, it was, it was a, Punishment a against Obama and against anyone who are aligned with him. Yeah. Or a correction and, and more than, and actually more than any sort of issue. That’s what I, I sort of read the Trump presidency as his, as an, a punitive reversal of the Obama.

0

00:19:04
It’s the only way that you could, that it makes it because otherwise you’re on the people who voted for them yet to say they were illogical and stupid. And let’s assume that that’s not the case that he actually was giving them something. They want. The only thing he brought to the table, the only thing he brought to the table was his not just willingness, but his stated intention to punish people who make his voters angry, because every other Republican would of done a better job on every other issue that is supposedly important to them, every single one of them.

0

00:19:46
And, you know, what accomplished the political ends more effectively. The only thing that Trump does is he hurts people. And my big problem with that, aside from the obvious one, which is, ah, you know, the obvious reasons why that’s bad it is, is that it’s, it’s not setting aside the fact that it’s tomorrow saying this side of the fact that I think it’s scary and discussing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

0

00:20:24
So also not effective as a way of moving through life and trying to get the things that you want, you know, is premised on this idea that you punched somebody in the face and that they will disappear after you punched them a video game character, or that they will simply cease to exist. And that’s just not how it works.

2

00:20:53
Or, and this is, this is in terms of my own experience in, on the interpersonal level, it’s both a punch to make someone disappear, but I think more frequently, especially on an interpersonal stuff, its a punch to make someone you and him. And I’m like, The the fight is, is, is about that kind of annihilation that you’re talking about.

2

00:21:23
But it’s, it’s ultimately about getting that person to come agree completely with you. So you do not have to move in any way or at any give no quarter, give no ground to any other perspective.

0

00:21:41
Well, what do you mean? How would, how would that w so you think that the intention there is to, to force them to agree?

2

00:21:51
Ah, it’s a, it’s a sort of manipulation.

0

00:21:56
Yeah, right. Sure. I think you’re right. It, it, but, but it’s a bad idea.

2

00:22:03
It’s a bad idea. But, but, but in terms of, so, so I do think Trump’s, Trump’s sort of approach is to sort of wipe people out and invalidate what it, whoever that is. If it’s John Lewis, if it’s John McCain both on their deathbeds, it’s sort of to unright their story. Right. But I think there’s a version of that, that that’s that’s Mmm, that’s a bit more like, as we see in the political divide and elsewhere as like that other perspective is completely wrong.

2

00:22:40
And in order for this relationship to work, that that person or group is, is essentially needs to redeem themselves to me and my perspective,

0

00:22:53
Which is never going to happen. That’s the thing it’s like through constant application of force, you can affect the changes that you want, you know, a punitive force, you, you can in the short term, but you know, w what that will require his either a, you know, the constant application of force from then on, at increasing levels in order to tamp people down, or are you have to kill everybody who doesn’t agree with you, you know, it, it is not a recipe for a peaceful, you know, it, it is inherently un-American if we consider the idea of America is being sort of, Oh yeah.

0

00:23:46
Not as practices, I think not as practice, but as far as a conceptual thing, do you know what I mean? Yeah, sure. You know, obviously America quote unquote writ large fall short of its ideals, but those ideals do mean something, it gets an orientation by which people, you know, choose to at least make their goals or, or, or, you know, try to pursue this, this idea that it’s fundamentally at odds with sort of the goals that we say we believe in, in this country, that, that, that is a meaningful distinction, right?

0

00:24:37
As opposed to se the Russian model, which it does not share the same underlying values and therefore, you know, a more sort of constant, like a punitive, a way of behaving is, is acceptable and understood to be non-controversial in a way that theoretically is here. And that’s a thing is they might, my biggest fear about Donald Trump when he was elected, was that it was an a, you know, a punitive action.

0

00:25:21
And that’s going to have a commensurate reaction. People will respond to that. And if we’re all going too, you know, are quarters at the time, you know, if we’re waging war against each other in this really openly hostile way, that’s gonna to ignite similarly sort of angry and punitive responses on the other side, just by definition. And that is happening.

0

00:25:53
You know, we, we spend all this time, I’m talking about Trump, it’s a dicier proposition for people who are probably speaking to lend themselves with the lab to a point out the areas in which that may be an impulse that exists. There are two, but it does to a certain degree. And what’s frustrating about it is it is off. It, it is in response to actual injustice. You know what I’m saying?

0

00:26:23
Like this is the real problem to my mind of, of this sort of dynamic. You have an actual problems that need to be addressed and injustices that need to be addressed and finding a way to do it that, you know, holds people appropriately accountable. And it solves the problems ahead of you without also ruining you. Yes.

2

00:26:49
Well, what you’re saying is exactly it it’s, it’s the, the, the, in the troubling part is when we confuse justice. And Punishment because there are, I believe there is such a thing as justice. There is such a thing as accountability, and it needs to be in place in a society and in families and in organizations and in movements and in schools and businesses and everything.

2

00:27:19
You’ve got to have it, it’s healthy. What it is really is a conversation, right? That’s what it really is. You hurt me, let’s meet this out. And if we need a third party to help us decide what that is, or if it’s serious enough that, that we have to a sort of short circuit, the revenge cycle and kick it up to the state to help make us those, help us make those decisions. That’s right. I think those things are right, at least from an, from an idea perspective, but, but we are so often like crossover, and I’m gonna use a real, I’m going to use an example that is dangerous, and I’m going to its extreme as you can get, I think, okay, you don’t have to, if you don’t want, well, okay, well now I’m scared,

3

00:28:11
But like

2

00:28:13
I’m thinking about the different few justice and prison rape is the difference between maybe a reasonable prison sentence and the idea that someone deserves to be raped when they’re there.

0

00:28:25
Yeah. That is a good at that. That is a good example. Like the idea of prison rape as being baked into people’s understanding of what is appropriate as, you know, a thing to experience when you get to sent to jail. Yeah. That is,

2

00:28:40
That would just add while we, while we’re, while we were in, in the area of, of dark material, like the way we think about punishing pedophilia moves from like, yes, there is a reasonable response here to let’s castrate and pull off genitalia and, and whatever else. And it’s tied to the prison rape thing to do that. To me,

0

00:29:07
It is, I mean, this August very thorny, because we’re talking about issues that in general, you know, appropriately and understandably create these strong visceral responses from people. And

2

00:29:21
Well, what I’m going to say is that those strong visceral responses are primed, but in the area of sale, like a pedophile or in certain other areas like a mass murderer or a serial killer of some sort like that, the, the, the deal is in those, we’re actually letting out those sort of inhibitions

0

00:29:42
There. And we’re sort of allowed to do it because the crimes are extreme, but actually we’re already like built up with those things about the guy who cuts off a cuts us off in traffic and the, our political opponents and our person that we don’t get along with in the office. We are like, we have those like, like primed emotional responses in like, they, they, they are permitted to spill out on some of those darker things and, you know, they are, or, I mean, that’s the thing.

0

00:30:12
Yes, that is true.

1

00:30:16
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1

00:30:48
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0

00:31:01
The thing about the question of pursuing justice as well. I think it comes down to the question of what is it that we’re trying to accomplish here? What do you walk? And it’s like, do you want a society, a civil society that functions, and, you know, being dispassionate in and applying justice is sometimes the best way to do to accomplish that.

0

00:31:34
But then also you have to, you know, also allow for people the reality of people’s emotional responses to these charged and, you know, horrendous things that they might happen and given an outlet for that is reasonable as well. I, this is the issue here. I think we’re talking about something that really requires thought and nuance and care.

0

00:32:09
And we are in a moment in our society where people are really thrown those things to the wind and where, you know, being measured or careful is not something anybody’s particularly interested in being right now, for reasons I understand. And an empathetic too, in many, many cases, I know that that’s the problem, right? Like in the case of, of,

2

00:32:40