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The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours Cocktail Hours Special Edition | Shakespeare & Enneagram Pt 1

Since we don’t have a Cocktail Hours lined up for you this week, we’ve decided to release an exclusive taste of our Shakespeare & Enneagram podcast series. In this episode, Jeremy Fiebig – STS Artistic Director, Claire Martin – Assistant Artistic Director, and STS Board Member Kellie Artis discuss the signature traits of Type One.  Popcorn is suggested as Jeremy and Claire then duke it out as they make their case for which of Shakespeare’s characters fit this Enneagram type. You’ll end this episode with deeper insights into Shakespeare, and by way of his characters, a little something about yourself.

Visit here to find out more about this awesome series from Sweet Tea Shakespeare and be sure to grab the episode of your type!

Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well by spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.

You can find our whole catalogue here.

The Hours are only possible because of regular support from our monthly sustainers and patrons. Please consider making a monthly pledge on Patreon. With options beginning at just $5, and plenty of great perks, you’ll find a great way to join the STS family.

You can always contact the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com.

JOIN our Facebook community here.

The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.

Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.

Consider following us on social media: FacebookTwitter, InstagramYouTubeTwitch

This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina  Arts Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural Resources.

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0

00:01:05
Hi there. This is Jeremy Fiebig I’m the artistic director of Sweet Tea Shakespeare and one of the voices you hear on this podcast, The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours doing something a little different today. We’re introducing a sneak peek of our Enneagram series. If you don’t know Enneagram is it’s an ancient personality typing system that’s really come into Vogue. And the last few years, a and it’s a discussion between me Claire Martin or Assistant Artistic Director or are you sometimes hear on the podcast as well? And Kelly, Artis one of our board members who is a specialist in Enneagram.

0

00:01:37
What we do is we go number by number across all nine numbers of the Enneagram. We talk about the personality types. We see how they match up with some of our favorite Shakespeare and characters and have a great discussion around each episode. So this is gonna be episode one, four Enneagram personality. Type number one. Ah, it’s a lot of fun. If your interested after listening in other number’s you just get on to our website Sweet Tea shakespeare.com/enneagram. You can find out how to access all of that other great information.

0

00:02:07
So if you’re number is two through nine, you can go all of those episodes for $40 where you can download them at a time for $5. If you already know what your number is, you just go in order what you want and then you’re home free. We hope you enjoy this. Please let us know if you do. We’re always interested in feedback about this and all our episodes. Then you can always get ahold of me directly at Hours that’s H O U R E s@sweetteashakespeare.com. With that all said, let’s dive in to episode one of our Enneagram series.

1

00:02:50
Hello? Lovely listeners. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Claire Martin and I be Assistant Artistic Director I’m Sweet Tea Shakespeare. And I’m here with you. Artistic

2

00:03:00
Director Jeremy Fiebig Kellie artists, and we are launching a podcast series that we’re very excited about in which we are going to Type Shakespeare Enneagram system. This is the first episode that we’re really excited to share, share discovery’s with you. So I wanted to start by a quick shout out to the Arts Council of Fayetteville in Cumberland County thank you so much for enabling us to launch, which is really exciting series.

2

00:03:33
And just continuing to support the Arts in our community were really grateful because we’d been looking forward on this for a long time. So just so you guys can get to know us a little bit better, we’re just going to tell you are names, the Enneagram type that we think we fall under and our favorite Shakespeare life. And then when we will take it from there. So Jeremy is going to go first.

3

00:03:54
I will be happy to go first. I’m Jeremy hello? I am an Enneagram one or three or four or five or eight. I think that’s, I think those are the options. And I’m excited about this process so that I can do some self discovery. I bet I listened to a lot of Enneagram stuff. I read a lot of Enneagram stuff and like, I ended up openly weeping because I identify with so many of them as they describe describe things.

3

00:04:29
So, yeah, I’m excited about this process. My favorite Shakespeare play a role for the longest period of time. It’s sometimes changes, but for the longest period of time has been the Tempest. And so there you go. I don’t know what that says about me. Maybe Tempus lovers are, are, are fours or something.

2

00:04:49
I figured not knowing your, your, any a confusion. That would be the longest answer with all of the numbers. So, Hey everybody, I’m a Kellie, I’m an Enneagram five, a very decidedly a is extremely clear. And I’m going to share a photo later of we were preparing for this episode, this recording, I had literally, I have a dining room sized table desk, and of course, and I have like eight ish books are all spread out, just laughing at myself, coz that’s a five thing. So anyway, yeah, I’m Enneagram five and what our favorite Shakespeare played, this is also going to be indicative.

2

00:05:24
So they brought me into this conversation because of my enthusiasm for the Enneagram and decidedly, not because of my knowledge of Shakespeare. So you guys are going to laugh. I would have said Romeo and Juliet because I’ll be back, girl, that’ll be me, but I have to say, I saw the Scottish play in the spring and I think that may be manufactured if it was fantastic. So this is my favorite for a long, long time.

3

00:05:50
Okay, cool.

2

00:05:55
Jeremy, that you move from the bloody Scottish play in to like the hope and like rejuvenation of the temple is a good thing happening and your soul growth through it.

4

00:06:06
Well, there you go. I’m an adult now. So here we are.

2

00:06:11
What about you? Claire Martin versus Kellie as a system or even my knowledge of it, but because of my knowledge, Shakespeare characters that they exist. And so I know that only because every quiz I have taken this told me that I’m and every time every description that I read, I find myself nodding to myself the most when I read the description.

2

00:06:44
So I’m assuming that’s what I am. We are going to get that probably either confirmed or problematized later. And my theater Shakespeare play is so low. That is us. We’re so excited to do this. So without further ado, Kelley, if you wouldn’t mind, please just tell our listeners a little of what it is in, how it can be used. Okay. So there’s no real quick way to do this guys. So just bear with me, if it seems like really reductive or simplistic, if you’re a fan of the Enneagram are you know much about it, I’m going to try to just break it down into a bite size sort of chunk.

2

00:07:23
A lot of people refer to it as a personality typology system. I will say it’s way more than that. But if that helps you kind of conceptualize what we are talking about, that’s fine. So it is essentially a system, a model. I’m an image like a diagram. Literally any of them means nine and gram is drawing are graphic or image. It is a shape that helps kind of overlay an outline, nine different archetypes of personality structures.

2

00:07:53
There are tons of significance. There’s a lot of significance with numerology and like groupings of numbers. So you’ll see it’s nine and nine types, but they are also grouped in various ways of threes and the circle has meaning. And then there’s all kinds of triads at play. So essentially you are one of nine numbers. Know Jeremy you are not, you are a little bit of all four. You have a type. When we also say your not a type, you have eight type, you are dominant in a certain type, but the Type also each of the numbers touch for other numbers on the diagram on this, on the model.

2

00:08:33
So that’s where some of the confusion often comes is, is people will take a test and the tests are a great entry point, but they are often, it’s really hard to capture the human being a, with a 50 question test, right? So there’s always going to be nuance and fluidity, and the system allows for that. So if you’re just getting started with, Enneagram be patient with it, it is work. It takes a long time. It’s a lot of self, self awareness, self discovery, and that we often are just kind of asleep to sow what the system does though. Is it really neatly and kind of your early packages up the coping mechanisms for each of the nine different types of people that are out there so that we were talking, I’m a five.

2

00:09:14
I know that I have influences of the two numbers on either side of me. And then I also know what I look like in health when I’m doing well, or when I’m behaving badly are unhealthy and type. And then using this system, I can also see where I’m reaching. So if I’m in a, in a good space in looking to grow, I can reach to eight actually Claire or I can also reach to seven. If I’m in stress and need extra coping mechanisms or extra tools to get me through something that is taxing my kind of go go two and defaults.

2

00:09:53
So nine numbers, we’re going to talk about Type One today, which is the perfectionist I’ll spin around this circle really quickly. Just so you guys know the names of each of the types, but the reason they’re our numbers and often not names is because numbers are really nonjudgmental. It’s not a spectrum. Like it’s not a scale, right. Where you can be like, one’s our goods and nines are bad. It’s not like that. It’s just kind of their just labeled around the, around the outside of this circle. The ones where the perfectionist, the tos are the helpers, the three’s are the achiever’s are performers.

2

00:10:27
The fore is the individualist or a romantic five is the observer. And the investigator, the six as the loyalist, the seven as the enthusiast, the AIT is the challenger and then the nine as a peacemaker. Okay, great. So we were just talking about how each number has four other points of contact on the system. So you have the opportunity to reach into sort of another tool set or another bucket of character traits, coping mechanisms, to try to help you either move gracefully through a stressful situation, or umm, kind of continue down a path of growth to become a more fully aware and a compassionate human being.

2

00:11:07
So that’s kind of what the system is in a nutshell, that is a very brief, a nutshell. And we are going to go through other dynamics and pieces of this system as we talk through each of the nine types. So stay tuned for all of the conversations so we can try to cover in more detail and depth, some of the different facets. And so today we are doing for our first episodes, we are looking at Type One at the beginning, he is a very good place to start.

2

00:11:39
And so Type One is called the reformer or the perfectionist. Yep. Either, either and or both, both are used

3

00:11:50
On both of those things.

2

00:11:51
Sure. You are Kelly, can you walk us through a little bit? Yeah. So, and Jeremy brings up a good point. So the Enneagram isn’t so much about your characteristics, right? It are your behaviors, its about your motivations. So just because you can be a perfectionist, you can be a perfectionist in nine different right. Ways for nine different reasons. Right? So ones are often kind of stereotyped is like wanting to keep checklists and have systems in order, I have checklists and I keep an order or a system that a one would call disorder.

2

00:12:27
Right. We all kind of do these things right. And it doesn’t necessarily make you that Type. So the One as mentioned is called the reformer oftentimes called the perfectionist. They are in the body triad. So these, our instinctual folks’ they learn, they listen to their environment, they perceive the world through their bodies. So the three types of triads are head heart gut, right. Thinkers, feelers doers. So these are your Dewars, your body folks.

2

00:12:57
So we are going to, I’m going to hit some like key points for each of the types to try to make sure that we’re being consistent across the board. And if you guys want extra clarification on any of this, I’m happy to dive in. And I’m sure once we start talking about the characters, I can maybe peel that apart a little more. So each of the triads has sort of a core emotion that drives them to action for the One. It is anger. Now what that looks like for a One is that it’s internalized anger. So wrong face Jeremy you wouldn’t see it.

2

00:13:27
I don’t want it’s internalized. So it often comes out his frustration, resentment I’m the ones really, really struggle with this inner critic. So their core desire, their core motivation from everything that they do in life is to be good. And then the core fear of a Type is often the inverse of the desire. So it seems simplistic, but it really is pretty deep. And the core fear of a one is of being bad or corrupt are defective in some way.

2

00:13:58
So ones are the folks that can walk into a room and feel that something is off and know it in their bones. It can be as minor as the picture frame, a little crooked or it gave you something way bigger than that. But they do have a way of kind of intuiting their situation, their surrounding, and the, the, the kind of the bummer for ever going around a One is that they’re often write. Cause they just are, you know, be careful before you pick a fight with them. Cause they’re probably going to eventually turn out to be right.

2

00:14:30
They are oriented around the present. So there’s different types of orientations to time. So ones are really focused on the here and now what in this moment can I fix, can I make it better? Because that as kind of, they’re like an obsession and there’s our past and future oriented. We’ll get to those later they have. So the number’s to either side have a number is called your wing, right? So these are essentially traits and behaviors that you have access to.

2

00:15:01
They’re not, they don’t affect your core motivation, but you can see like flares right. Of either side. So the, the one is in between the nine, the peacemaker and the two, the helper. So you could either have a little bit of both. You can have no wing, like really nothing really shows up or you could usually people have one that’s more dominant than the other. So when you see in Enneagram speak, you’ll see people say I’m a one w two, it means they’re a one with a two wing.

2

00:15:33
And what that looks like in different ways is it kind of balances out their core traits. So for the one with a nine wing, so who has the peace maker influence? They are often called the idealist. So these are big picture thinkers, they’re abstract dreamers, and they can get a little detached, but their also super discerning I’m the one with a two way thing is often called the advocate. So these folks are more relationship driven. They’re more compassionate about the things that they want to fix, right?

2

00:16:05
So just a solid one is like, everything’s on fire. I wanna fix it. All right. Then with the influences of the two wings, it can kind of bring out different dynamics for that. Type we can talk about stress insecurity a little bit later. I did jot down some pop culture ones for people to kind of like have as a reference. So one of my favorite new shows fiction obviously are a, you know, it’s such, it’s a TV show. I’m is the good place. So do you guys know CIDI out of the ethics professor and Judy is a hardcore ones and what’s so funny about the fact that TD spoiler, skip ahead of you haven’t caught up on the good place, but if, you know, JD thinks he’s in a good place because he’s good.

2

00:16:51
But the fact that is that his fixations and all of his, his struggles, his path, his, they call them passions and Enneagram speak, which is anger kept him from actually forming meaningful relationships because no one could meet his expectations. So we ended up eventually and the bad for us. So anyway, sorry for that for you guys. And another one is Leslie Knope from parks and rec, right? The binder. Those are kind of fun. I’m a little comparison’s but yeah, so I’ll leave that there and if it was kind of brief, but yeah.

2

00:17:24
What do you guys think? That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing Jeremy

5

00:17:35
Yes. And I identify with them all. I’m a, I believe I’ve, I’ve actually played to of them. So I’m going to start with

2

00:17:45
Which you identify with. Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, we’re not going to talk about that. There are bad ones. It doesn’t mean they have to. Maybe they think they’re, they’re doing that for a good reason. Write that you can definitely be unhealthy and disordered.

3

00:18:04
Absolutely. I’m the top of my list. Ah, the one that came to one, the one that came to mind first is Claudius and Hamlet who his one’s one, I think he’s, he’s the King who kills his brother. He is Hamlet’s uncle. And from the top of that show, and then later in an important moment in the show, Claudia is, is, is sorta working through the binder as it were like he’s he starts his first moment on stage as a sort of legal argument about sorta why we should be thinking the ways that we’re thinking.

3

00:18:45
And he just goes through a list he’s talking about, you know, why it’s okay that we’re moving on from the, the sort of funeral period and why it’s okay. That he married Gertrude and why it’s okay. That we’re, we’re going to go to war with Norway and an and it’s, it’s got that. He is, he sees himself, I think, as a reformer. And he certainly deals with With anger and sort of guilt.

3

00:19:19
A certainly later on the plate, he’s in, he’s in a confession, he’s in like he’s, he’s confessing his sins and he’s going through like one by one of the things that he’s done, including killing his brother and sort of wrestling with this thing that he thinks is wrong with him or defective. And it’s all tied to his actions and they can’t really escape it. A and so I I’m, and he’s a, he’s the kind of leader that the One, as I understand it, it tends to be, yes, they emerged, they emerged to the front of the group.

3

00:19:56
And so Claudia is, is my, is my first one. And I, I played Claudius before and I understand that the, the sort of anger and the instinctual thing kind of feels it. I don’t know if this is Enneagram speaker not, but he feels it in his gut. He feels at, in his book and his body kind of sit in deep with him. And so, yeah, that’s my first one. Claudia is,

2

00:20:22
So I think key to point out here is the fact that You, he’s kept in the account, like has a ledger of the things that he’s done wrong are not done well enough. And that is for sure a theme for ones, because the inner critic is not just like one little voice. It’s like the judge jury execution are all on one, right? And then it’s always sitting on the shoulder, like screaming, like things can be better. You could have done, you need to do this. Right. So I often tell people too, like if you think One is in the mix, but you don’t struggle with an inner critic, you can probably cross it off, like, cause it is a, like a legit thing.

2

00:20:59
So, so that was the thing I noticed most when I was still, I can live with one forever Shakespeare in play because I, they were only three, the only free place and the Canon where literally I went out every single character Eagle at the messengers and they could not find one person that seemed like a One. So we can talk about what the absence of oneness or at least like the speak to him one, this means for those plays. But also like, what I found is that a lot of the characters I was coming up with were leaders and a lot of them were like compulsive leaders.

2

00:21:37
Like they really were like grasping onto authority, even if they were actually that high level. Like you have some Dukes and Kings, but I also have like folio.

3

00:21:48
I w I just wrote him down. He was, he was a late edition and I can’t believe I forgot him. Yeah.

2

00:21:54
But I also think for me, I think that of the characters that are like Ben Mendelsohn get stuck playing middle management, what the bad one, then that’s how it blossoms in my mind, this, this, this like compulsive desire, not only to, to reform and make perfect, but the need to have power and a ritual to accomplish the most kind of the umbrella of influence.

2

00:22:32
So power and control is a theme for body types. I will say in different ways, I’m the eighth and that they are everyone. And so there’s, this are there for each grouping of three in each of the centers or the triads. There’s always, umm like a primary repressed or supporting sort of facet or another words. It could also be internalized. Externalized are suppressed and completely detached from it. So the one tends to be more of that internalizing component of the body triad, a, the AIT is externalizing and the nine is completely like detached.

2

00:23:08
It’s suppressed from them. And control is definitely something that they’re very attuned to in different ways. That’s a good point. What else you got? Jeremy who else

3

00:23:20
To me about most of the characters here, there’s a legalistic part of this, right? So their, their, their perfectionism is about comparing to some ideal that they have in their head and sort of arguing that out. Sometimes it’s internally, but often it’s it’s when they struggle with other characters or their situation, they’re, they’re comparing what they’re experiencing to a narrative that they’ve invented in their head.

3

00:23:54
And it’s often thought in, in really legalistics terms. And so some of the other names I have on my list are a yoga we’ve come back and talk to him cause he’s are talking about him Porsche and in a merchant of Venice, Don Pedro in much ado about nothing calculate and Roman Juliet Bolingbrook and a Richard, the second particularly and Helena. And the thing about all of these, what’s interesting about Bolingbrook, about Claudius about Porsche and about Helena and Don Pedro is that they’re all, they all appear as lawyers in some way, they’re all pressing a case at some point in those place, of course, Porsha plays on a, a, an actual lawyer write in disguise and Bolingbrook is arguably a, a, an actual lawyer in that play.

3

00:24:52
He is certainly a member of the court and as presenting a case and prosecuting a case. And so there’s that prosecutorial feel two, all of these where most of these, I think some are kinder and more generous of spirit about it than others. I think Portia is certainly one of those people, but the rest are a******s. That’s the best way to put it, even though I’m just

2

00:25:19
For a second.

3

00:25:20
Oh yeah. Hell sorry. Sorry. Yeah, she, she is not an a*****e, but she has a lawyer.

2

00:25:30
Portia is actually much more fundamentally. So we got up one with a two wing. I’m going to jump in with the, You just a gray area. And I love that because that is one thing that one specifically, and also ate as well. There is no gray, right?

2

00:26:00
It’s black or it’s white and that’s it, there is no middle ground, you know, then even you are talking about lawyers and I’m seeing I’m envisioning the scales of justice, right? Like that is a very clear it for One specifically. And you’re right. Jeremy totally, it can be an ideal in their head or it could be something that they’ve learned or accumulated over time, but it is very clear to them. And then depending on their ability to sort of navigate humanity is whether or not you can do that with compassion to others who maybe aren’t there or in the same place is not my thing.

2

00:26:33
It was great. Some of the, some of the language around like unhealthy ones, self-righteous inflexible, obsessive contradictory,

1

00:26:44
A condemned, a story punitive. I mean, these are we’re following. If your a one y’all forgive us, we’re not trying to pick on you we’ll do this for everybody. But a lot of times people find their Enneagram type based on like the stuff you’re trying to hide. Right. Cause its the whole point of your ego is to like hide stuff right into it to, you know, present the sort of character I’m, which is, I just love that. So many of these characters have such as a structure that fits, you know what I mean? Like this still is in tune, like is in keeping with a classic sort of personality structure and it’s fantastic.

1

00:27:21
Healthy ones are wise and accepting balanced. Their can be balanced. It takes time, it takes growth. It takes learning that and being like reasonable, evaluating your situation’s and principled, but in still like in a reasonable way. So that’s great. That’s great. Yeah. I think that a measure for measure is a great, great investigation of Type One because I, I think my ultimate argument, which is something I will defend til I die, which is the Angelo in Isabela are just two sides at the same point.

1

00:27:57
And they’d got the same toolkit. The only reason she is not a lawyer is because she was a woman written by a 17th century author. She went live today and they are like the blueprint for every screenplay, Aaron Sorkin in a row. It’s like two, totally like you reconcilable world views. And they think that it is, they argue long enough. They can convince the other ones. And they’re both, they’re both perfectionistic. They are both performers.

1

00:28:29
And they both a at various moments, I think show ’em flashes all of those trades that you just describe, especially the negative traits. Their is, this is their scenes are a prosecutorial and the day they are both striving so hard to be principled that they are actually like being flexible often to like human compassion and as human empathy. So a, I think that a method for measuring it’s a faceted that that’s what they did.

1

00:29:01
It keeps rising into my mind was to be talking about the ones because I think Angelo is a, Bella are both ones. And the great tragedy of that piece is that like when they go head to head, each one thinks they can prevail and they will never be able to be as they are so easily matched. That’s tough.

0

00:29:20
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1

00:29:58
I’m so Jeremy, I’m just going to be, can I just list some of the characters that I had? I just want to get your thoughts because I feel like, I feel like I’m learning so much more about the One just by having this conversation. If I hear you, Kellie talking about it. So some of these may not, no longer apply, but umm, for all is, well, I also have Helena as you, like you do have a senior being the, the more Y compassionate principle type of work of one for company barriers I have to do. So blindness a to keep control of is mad cap City for assembling.

1

00:30:36
I have the song for Love’s Labour’s lost. I have King for Nana Newmar. Then I will spend that because I think that his absences is absolutely what it is because to me, it, to me for nit is T V from Shakespeare play. Yeah. Measure ahead and load Isabella for two of us at his Porsche, I have Mary Wise Windsor with the first play where I can think of a single character who was a One. And I wonder if that contributes to the general inanity of what happens in that play because there is no one who’s tried it.

1

00:31:06
There’s no one with trying to post a structure. There’s no one whose trying to reform our control. It’s just pass it so much to do you also have Don Pedro for Paris Please I had Marina who’s striving so hard to be per a principled virginal seller, even though she literally live in a body house. I’m taming. It is true. I had this or is it <inaudible> I dunno how to say his name

0

00:31:34
Depends on which continent to you live in.

1

00:31:38
So Cynthia trying to impose like the ideals of romantic love, that’s like detached from economic advantage. He is trying to just trying to incorporate that it would be on his life. Umm, for the 10 minutes I had Antonio, which is very similar to the, to the Duke senior thing, except in burst for Troilus and Cressida. I had none. And I also think that that contributes to the widespread bloodshed of that play because no one has keeping anyone else, both nine and a half out of the Leo to Jen’s I have Sylvia and the winter’s tale.

1

00:32:18
I have Polina’s those are my comedy characters. And what was interesting to me in curating that list because I realized like we have some of these characters, if you said Jeremy are a******s at other characters, we really, really want to believe in because their ideals are they’re quite honorable, right? Like Sylvia straight up tells Proteus when he comes wooing. She’s like you have a woman who loves you you’ve you’ve committed yourself to her, go back to her right now, rethink your life choices.

1

00:32:47
Like don’t you dare Boomi, like be a man of honor. Like she has a speech where she tells him that. And so I think that we can, what I like about this, this Enneagram thing is that there is no, is there a single morality attached to it? Like, but in a bad version of any time, because that’s how humans are at any quality that we possess, we can have it to an unhealthy degree or we can have it if we can not have enough of it. And so I like, yeah, I liked the, the, the variety of characters that they were sort of that made it under this umbrella.

1

00:33:23
But I think, I think your Henry Bollingbrook is spot on Jeremy. I think Henry Ford is like possibly like the quintessential One at least that the history plays. So what was, can you talk with her? It was going through your head when you picked him.

3

00:33:39
Well, I, I sort of sent her around his role in and Richard the second more than anything, which is the sort of prosecutorial role he sees, Richard is a to lax, to decadent. And there’s a, there’s a sort of, of sort of a military posture about Bolingbrook and a, and I follow the rules and, and his, his story is about restoring order.

3

00:34:13
And of course, and, and in both of the Henry for plays is about maintaining order. And so, and it’s also actually a BA as, as, as the case with so many of these characters, it’s also about his guilt of having in order to restore the order that he, he wanted, he had to create disorder to do it and depose a King and all of that. And so throughout the, the, the Henry foreplay’s, we’re seeing him a wrestle with this thing that he’s done, that is on one level sort of counterintuitive for him.

3

00:34:51
And, and he doesn’t do it. He doesn’t do it like a really great job at that. He wants to hold other people to account throughout those plays. And, and does I think, but he has trouble actually holding himself to account because he knows then in order to keep the rules, he’s had to break the rules. And that’s a really lovely sort of Tara part of this character, I think.

1

00:35:23
Yeah. So I think I’m going to think that spot on. I also think that the great, the great irony of a kind of funny his, his crusade to reestablish order in England and too, to put a King on the throne himself who will impose structure and order in principle, I’m the consequences of that are like so far reaching and so bloody and strewn with corpses that you just are left, won, like you get to the end of the historic place and you’re just left wondering, well, why is it worth?

1

00:36:07
And that’s certainly what he’s asking himself, like, as he dies. And of course another great irony is that he has a son who I would argue, is it an eight, but like, pretends that he’s a seven, like you lean so far into a seven wing if you liked pretends, but that’s what he is. And of course a seven is, you know, chaos and Epicureanism like and partying. And so

2

00:36:30
For me to be a really healthy one, who’s making a reach to seven, right? So yeah,

1

00:36:41
His, his own child who’s should be like the great white hope of his mission of Bolingbroke is a mission of like it’s to have reestablishing order or in England, umm, for the head, for most, for most of the Henry workplace, he embodies the opposite of that. And so Bollingbrook is not only does it not only reeling for it, with the political repercussions of what he’s done, which creates a civil war that it doesn’t end for about a century, but also he has to face down the fact that just because he holds these principles to be inalienable does not mean that his son is automatically going to feel the same.

1

00:37:18
And that is what causes like the ultimate father, son tension of those plays is that Bollingbrook just wants his son to be a, the next iteration of him and his son is sort of telling him not so subtly to data, not you and you can’t make me You for better or in reverse. You can’t make me You so yeah, I love, I love thinking about Henry’s oneness as like the head as his, you know, sort of the reason why he’s able to accomplish as much as he does and attain the Heights that he does and also like what, what brings him low at the end?

2

00:38:00
Yeah, it’s a driving force. I mean, you can it’s his, it was his mission, his mission, right? Like he really not, regardless of the means. Right. That’s cool. That’s cool.

1

00:38:11
So in the tragedies Jeremy I had, for me, I was thinking about Anthony and Cleopatra because you don’t how much I love that play. I was thinking of Octavian people to bet one and his like what’s so sad about is in a play with a bunch of freaking party animals. Yeah. And he’s just trying to impose order.

2

00:38:32
It’s interesting laying those two stories, know the, the bowling book

3

00:38:37
Versus Howe and the Octavian versus Anthony and Cleopatra is, is the same story. Essentially the perfectionist versus the epicures yeah.

1

00:38:52
Is 21 and Antony Cleopatra like in the forties, where were we see adult in? How is the last place and not to start a One is Cory lameness because it’s the only characters who are trying to like who have this reforming, perfectionistic. They are all secretly serving themselves. Like it’s all kind of a front for actually just wanting and other things like for wanting power.

1

00:39:24
But it doesn’t, it doesn’t seem authentically rooted. And the desire to actually lead its just a desire to like w***e to power. And I don’t know if that’s, I don’t know. I don’t know if that qualifies. It’s a woman, I guess it just depends on depends on what the perceived outcome of hoarding the power with powering, you know? Yeah. That’s a tough one. Jeremy I’m not familiar with the characters. There’s a tricky, tricky.

3

00:39:53
I, I think I tend to agree, although alumna is that the mother is she, she, she might scratch the itch a little bit. Maybe,

1

00:40:07
Maybe I thought she was a loyalist.

3

00:40:11
You can’t, you could be right. We will discover that in the six episode,

1

00:40:18
Some other, as you guys are talking, I had jotted down a few other like attributes or maybe like names that folks attribute to one’s teacher, teacher activist, Crusader, a Seder more or less. I’m an organizer who are often kind of associated with that. Type so I’m hearing all of these things as you guys are talking to pick your spot on spot on the top Claudia’s I also had Polonius as, at the time and that to me, like now I sympathize with Hamlin in a way that I’m barely do, because if your running around with two ones, like Columbia is in Claudia’s at that’s your, that’s the force that you are constantly bragging with.

1

00:40:58
Like, I mean I would want to lie around and make friends and feel people today.

3

00:41:02
Yeah. And I actually, I think I agree and I think the difference between Claudius and Polonius is that Claudius would be something like a one with a nine wing, a peacemaking wing and Polonius would be a one with a helper wing. And can you sorta like, you know, running around pulling strings, this got that sort of two manipulation quality about it. So yeah,

1

00:41:31
To do good. He tries really

3

00:41:34
Hard.

1

00:41:41
Okay. So I’m surprised you didn’t have this one. Jeremy because This One to me, it was like the first one I thought of, which is Brutus and Julius Caesar.

3

00:41:50
Yeah. That’s a C C as you say that, I would like, let’s see, I Cassius strikes me as more of a One and so there’s something there though. I mean, there’s a, there’s this like I think Brutus for me, Lanza is a sort of, Oh, this is a much more self doubt. And I know the inner critic as part of the, the one here, but I see him maybe as more of a withdrawn type or would like to be withdrawn like a five and may get sort of manipulated into, into something else.

1

00:42:33
I like that. And you know, as you were speaking, I also, I also had to rethink because Kellie what you were saying at the top of the show was that common characteristic of one’s is there also, which is really frustrating, but there, and I think like hashes is much more Machiavellian, but I agree with you Jeremy that like he, he does have, it has a real politic instincts route.

1

00:43:03
Is it just sort of maybe let him lean into a little bit more, they wouldn’t have gotten a host the way they knew. And also with Brutus, like I can’t think of a single time in the plane when he comes through a rational, reasonable decision and it’s the right decision. It’s almost always wrong. And he tries so hard and he thinks they have everything. So conscientiously, then it feels like watching him process, it gets a bit, seems impossible. If you could be wrong, then you realized just how misplaced all of his, all of those trusts are.

1

00:43:39
So yeah, I like that. So also just to provide further points of clarification, Jeremy you just mentioned withdrawn stances, excuse me, at that is another tryout are grouping and that we can attribute to the different Enneagram types. So there are three stances and essentially that is how you deal with conflict. There is the withdrawing stance, the dependent pendant stance and the aggressive six one and two or in the dependent stance.

1

00:44:10
And you’re dead on what the five, so five for a nine or withdrawing. So we are gonna back away like, you know what I’m out and then seven and three are your aggressive stances. But what that means for though for the dependent stance is they are going to either kind of anchor on two something that, is there a guidepost, they are there things the sixth would the community, right?

2

00:44:32
The one would probably be like this code, wherever the code exists, but that’s going to be there. They are like the thing that they follow. And that’s the thing that they claim to wholeheartedly. Also interesting to note often mistyped type ones often mistype themselves as five fours or sixes and they are the threes to be my problem. Jeremy listen, I got You we’re going to figure it out and take notes.

2

00:45:03
So threes, sixes, and sevens, like to Type themselves as ones. Like, so it’s so funny, like certain Enneagram types, like I’m completely content with my Type. I love my Type, but oftentimes especially my husband’s an eight and he’s always like, I don’t want to be an eight. I want to be something else. Cause it seems like the jerks. Right. And his, but we all, that’s the point, right? We all think that we can be something better. We all want to present as something else. We don’t want to see the shadows. We don’t want to see the garbage and our trunk, you know, whatever. So three sixes and sevens like to Type themselves as ones.

2

00:45:37
And let me circle back to my first statement. Often ones will mistype themselves as fives, fours, and sixes. So that five connection there is real. And then the four has to do with the withdrawing probably. And then the sixth is the The morality. Like the code often seems like a loyalist sort of community driven thing when oftentimes it’s not, it’s all about themselves and their yeah. Yeah.

3

00:46:05
That re that. That makes me think back to somebody I have mentioned already, which is a yoga teacher who is, The this sort of master manipulator puts himself in the way. I think he’s one with a two wing, you know, he’s, he’s got that, you know, two is when we get their next time, they are like super manipulative. That’s their whole thing they do.

2

00:46:31
You can be like, can we be better than this is not, Ooh, it’s not going well, but he’s

3

00:46:50
Yeah. I wonder, I wonder if he is, she she’s a, she could be a real counter type because she, we, which we haven’t talked about yet, but she, she really, she knows what the rules are and does not mind smashing them and rewriting her own, which I think is it just doesn’t mean she doesn’t have rules I’ve for, for me a Jago is he’s everything he does is about some kind of justice. It’s just his version. You know, he feels like he’s been sort of jumped over for promotion.

3

00:47:24
He feels, I think there are some, some great queer theory and a fellow that, that can maybe unpack some, some of a yoga, his inner guilt, particularly when he talks about the impropriety of a Claudia, his behavior, when they’re bedded together. I think there’s some, some great stuff. The Casio, sorry. I said Claudia, but Casio where there’s some impropriety there there’s some imp some impropriety and justice issues he talks about, or Hantz about umm, with the idea of it that may be a fellow and his wife Amelia have a liaison in some way and he’s up, he’s obsessed with it.

3

00:48:11
And he’s working behind the scenes to sort of rewrite the order. And of course I haven’t mentioned his, his racist and religious based beliefs there that there, this outsider a fellow is in violation of all of those, that, that sense of justice that he has. Of course it’s misdirected completely.

3

00:48:41
But, but I think he’s, he’s one of these two. He is. And unlike one of these other characters like Claudius or Don Pedro who’s outwardly prosecuting the case, I think Iago is he is prosecuting it to the audience, but in terms of his activity and, and work behind the scenes, it’s much more about manipulating things to create a new order, to, to create a reform.

1

00:49:09
And I think that’s, I think that’s what does the bonus is doing the first scene when she walks in and she’s like that I love you as your daughter. Like of course I love you. And I, you know, I submit to you, but the way that our world operates, the moment I get married, my loyalties with my husband and this is my husband and you just have to deal with that. And she doesn’t, she doesn’t allow the distinct content outrage all recessed from Venetian society to dissuade her from the fact that like, not only is she within her rights to have married a fellow, but she’s within her rights to defend that publicly in front of the Duke.

1

00:49:52
And so to me, she seems like not so much the big picture, but like the, I think, I think the Wayne to, in the sense of like she, she is trying to be radically compassionate. She’s trying to normalize a, a, she is trying to normalize for her into an interracial marriage. That’s something that people should except because morally and principally like it is right. And so that is actually fascinating.

1

00:50:23
We can read a fellow that you have the worst one ever, and the one ever

2

00:50:28
In the same play. I liked the idea of a fellow. It was like pure ate, you know, and he is, he’s got these two ones on either side of then. And the really sad thing is that he was to the like corrupt One instead of the morally, you know, righteous One.

3

00:50:48
Yeah. And w some of what you’re saying about Desdemona rings with a, you know, the phrase Kellie use or a term Kelley is describing one as an activist, which is, which is kinda what a, what I hear you say, Desdemona, and sort of In invoking this social reform and sense of justice is, is about, you know, I think that it works.

2

00:51:13
You are going to die. I literally have this, I have all my books because I told her I’m a five and I rely on competency. This is a quick plug for Chris here. It’s his new book, but I literally have this open and I don’t fully, I haven’t fully ingested the concept, but once an eight I have a tie and that they play this, he calls them luminary roles. They can teach us balance because you got them flanking, either side of the body triad, write this instinctual sort of everything about the body tryout is the access to Anchor.

2

00:51:45
And what do you do with the anger? Right. And also based on just the Enneagram Schaefer in and of itself, kind of holding up the two sides of the tent, right. And all of their energy is pushing downward, which is, which is, it has meaning also, but the, to in tandem with each other and seeing in context of each other, they’re not connected otherwise, but they also, they teach us and they teach the rest of the system balance. How do we find a balance between the two extremes? I just literally was reading that today.

2

00:52:17
I will dig into it a little more about a time we get to eight and be able to explain it more fully. But I think that’s great. Cause there’s definitely some really unique ties there because that also incorporate it into a rehearsal room context, like a long way for justifying, why a fellow trustee, as explicitly as a whole heartedly, as he does, maybe on some subconscious level, like it was like Desdemona is the person a fellow arguably trust the most in the world.

2

00:52:59
So this is cool.

3

00:53:00
So here’s, here’s the other thing that I keep coming to as far as I, as I’m thinking about this, which is, so I come from the posture that Shakespeare, his writing plays not like out of the blue, not like he had just had these ideas one day to just write these characters in these stories, but actually he’s basing his writing on the actors that he has in his troupe and their skillset and Andy, what they bring to the table. And so he has people in his troop who he knows can do the, the lawyerly thing that we’re talking about or the advocacy thing that we’re talking about.

3

00:53:42
And, and are that sort of, ’em, there’s a kind of a forwardness and precocious Snus to this one that, that resonates with so many of these characters. And so, so one thing I would, I would love to do in the time machine is go back and see how many of these characters were played by the same people. And, and, and I think certainly like when you’re looking at a Claudius in a Don Pedro in a calculator there’s and even a Bolingbrook, there’s a, there’s an argument to be made that that’s probably arguably anyway, one actor, right.

3

00:54:22
Is playing those parts. And with some of the, some of these female characters, they are written at different time. So it’s unlikely that the boys coming, coming up out of the schools would have been the same across, across most of these plays, but there is a sort of forward kind of student, like, I’m really good at this. I just came out of school. I know what all the arguments are in sort of classical rhetoric, which is what they would have been trained in.

3

00:54:54
Like, ah, the, the playwright’s seeing those qualities and shaping the character around the actor as well is something I think that can be pretty fascinating. And I wonder then to go to some of the plays that Claire has identified as maybe not having a One, if that’s assigned that maybe that actor was, was on a break or are they, or they didn’t have a person of that quality, you know, in the troop at that time, they’d cycled out or they’ve moved on or whatever.

3

00:55:24
Its just something I, I keep thinking about.

1

00:55:27
So I just need, because you keep mentioning calculate, the one that I have for RJ is actually Prince. Escalas not to calculate. I struggled to you guys can be on it to me. It doesn’t, he doesn’t seem to be actively trying to reform or improve anything. It seems like he’s responding in real time to the disfavor that the family has followed into the street brawls, then he’s like, I gotta a rush up. His marriage was gonna let happen slowly. I’m just going to throw it together now so that we can reclaim some legitimacy and the eyes of the, you know, of the government, but escalates to be seen as like the ones like actively trying to reform the one whose trying to impose such kind of structure with theory, little success or advocacy, but he is trying.

1

00:56:13
But I think it’s interesting like, but maybe you have a point cause I don’t know what I would Type calculate out of it.

3

00:56:19
I definitely agree with you that the ESCO is, is, is a law and order. And that certainly resonates with here. The, the, what draws me to calculus in particular is he does have a sense of idealism with regard to his daughter and her behavior. I, I do think and umm, and the, the sort of law and order of the house, what makes me think of what makes me imagine calculate is actually seeing where the arrow’s go with the a one.

3

00:56:55
So if it goes to a, a four in stress and a seven and integration, and I think there’s so many things of that calculate does when he goes into stress. So, so four is like the perf up the performer, the Artistic Type and he, and I can see him in getting ready for the party and he’s sort of stressing out and managing the servants and, and, and wanting the image of that to be its kind of an artist. It’s what, what a director does when their spending on a play and there’s that kind of quality to it.

3

00:57:31
But then there’s the opposite of that is that when that party starts to go, well, he’s moving into the integration and it is a party. He is an Epicurean. He is sort of this weird, it becomes this weird sort of cartoonish like father of the bride, like slightly drunk and having a ball. And so that’s what, that’s what made me think of calculus there.

2

00:58:00
So in one goes to for, and so what that means you guys, if you’re unfamiliar with how you move to stress, like you have access, you could reach into another Type right. So what I’m hearing, Jeremy say it like ones, when they get stressed out, they become really judgmental they’re rule followers. They’re our world is on fire. They are like, ah, they need something else. They need something else to help get their needs met, fulfill their desires, whatever. So then they move to for, and you can either do that in a good way. On the high side of four, you can do that in a bad way or an unhealthy way or an unintentional way.

2

00:58:32
But what that does, two, a one is it teaches them how to name their anger. First of all, they’re resentment, whatever’s going on. They get to learn emotional language. Umm, and they get to learn how to name their anger. Umm, on the high side, if it’s a good move, quote unquote, they are able to embrace imperfection, right? That’s good. It’s a party, right? Let the kids color outside the lines, all that kind of stuff. Name your emotions, embrace your creativity. When you do that in a low mood, when you go to the low side of four, you become a dramatic, moody and super irrational.

2

00:59:07
When you normally have that to claim to you

3

00:59:09
There in the bedroom, that’s a calculator.

2

00:59:12
Yeah, you’re totally right on that. I had the Duke

1

00:59:22
Of Albany as the single person trying to, trying to refer and just like a family at every turn because you sort of lacks the histones to implement any of his principles. And then also, you know, he’s going up against his wife who has a willpower that, you know, a dry up oceans. And then for Mackers, I have a lady and a Romeo Giulia.

1

00:59:50
<inaudible> who in the end of course the storms, storms with Gates, he is leading his band of a kind of imagined or like kinda like Cassius. It is, you know, revolt rebels. And then for Titus Andronicus, I have the, the truth is some Saturday I and S those were, those are all of mine, but I think it was one of the ones I struggled with. Cause I don’t, you might have insights to this Jeremy but I couldn’t think of anyone besides Albany that like fit a One.

1

01:00:22
And I like, I wonder to myself, like, is that part of why the world falls apart? Because there was just no one, no One trying to reform like honestly or tried it.

3

01:00:39
Th th that strikes me at the moment as, as the one he is just in that play is Lear. And I’m not saying he is a one, but the way that opening scene is so much about his, his reading have a V kind of justice about how his daughter, his ought to be treating him. I don’t think it’s rational. Don’t get me, The get me wrong in there. But there is a, there is a sort of, ah, there’s a prosecutorial field. There’s a lawyerly feel, this, this, this is the way it is going to be.

3

01:01:11
But that, that character probably cycles through all, all sort of nine motivations as, as someone who is sort of increasingly detached from reality. And so he is one of them had to think about some more, but I do think there are some, there are some qualities they’re certainly.

1

01:01:32
Yeah.

3

01:01:35
And interestingly, as I say that out loud, sorry, a Cordelia is, it has some of those qualities in the first scene as she presses back against that. And that’s really interesting and an assigned for me of, of their connection and their sort of strong headedness, umm, that they have in common. Yeah,

1

01:01:54
She is, she is stubborn to a fault. I don’t know how you can on how you play for any other way. Like I know she’s been with a wilting Lily for all the time, but like that, I don’t know how you can read the text and play her that way because she is, she’s like pig headed and she obviously gets a word to hack. So stubbornness is a really strong trait. So that would be, that could be the one wing nine,

3

01:02:21
Interestingly enough, what we did that production in a couple of years ago and our, our good friend Jen Pommerenke he played Cordelia as herself. If you know what I mean? And that’s, that’s awesome. Yeah. So Jen, if your listening to take that for what you will,

1

01:02:46
Well, we are, we’re cutting to the coming to the end of our hour, but this has been so much fun on it. It is so excited to do this whole series of what you guys so much for helping you so much for all your amazing research and for be our brilliant moderator. I’m learning. I’m learning.

3

01:03:08
Thanks for joining us for The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours we’re produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig our theme song is by own Eddie Ashanti Bennett is our general manager Jen Pommerenke assist with each episode. This episode is edited by Ashanti Bennett.