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The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours | Charlie Brown, Election Countdown, and Sandwiches

Join actor and Hollywood screenwriter, Rob Gibbs, and Sweet Tea’s Artistic Director, Jeremy Fiebig, on this After Hours podcast episode as they dissect Charlie Brown’s The Great Pumpkin (it’s almost Halloween!) and count you down to November’s Big Election. Both things include something orange! To keep with the After Hours running theme, they also give you some interesting Thoughts regarding their questionably good eats. Cheers!

Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours, where we spend time well by  spending it together. Think of the Hours as a way to pass the time around a common table of ideas. We’re a community seeking to delight in story, song, and stagecraft even as we confront a world of change and challenge.

You can find our whole catalogue here.

The Hours are only possible because of regular support from our monthly sustainers and patrons. Please consider making a monthly pledge on Patreon. With options beginning at just $5, and plenty of great perks, you’ll find a great way to join the STS family.

You can always contact the Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com.

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The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig and edited by Ashanti Bennett.

Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.

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This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina   Arts  Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural   Resources.

 

 

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1

00:01:10
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare after hours, where we offer to you in depth conversations, insider insights and a sneak peek behind the scenes were here. We’re here. Hello? Hello, Rob. How are you doing? I’m all right.

0

00:01:32
Well right. How about you, sir? Is so good. I can’t even, yeah, well that’s maybe better than me, but I’m doing okay. Good, good. You know, it’s a low key day. We have a hurricane blowing through a leftover a hurricane. I should say wearing my blanket, trying to keep warm is good. Yeah. Well we got a few different things that we want to talk about today.

0

00:02:04
So we do, we’re gonna, we’re going to talk about Charlie Brown pumpkin’s yeah. This week and politics. We’re talking about Jersey Mike’s when you get to our sandwich reviews. It’s true. This is all very exciting. Yeah, it is. You know, ah, as your weather discussion indicates, we are moving into the fall here is sort of definitively. And now that we’re in October The Halloween times or are upon us to at least they are at my house, my kids have been really excited about getting decorations out and whatnot show.

0

00:02:42
We are in the midst of that. And one of the big parts of Halloween, at least around these parts, his, the annual watching of the Charlie Brown peanut, it’s a Halloween special. Its the great Pumpkin Charlie Brown which a I’ve watched and realized

2

00:03:00
Is a fascinating text. And there’s all sorts of interesting things to talk about with regard to that. So I elect if this is a topic of discussion for, for us today to introduce it to us, if you would okay. Having to do so. So it’s the great Pumpkin Charlie Brown is one of the classic holiday specials. The second holiday special that was done by Charles Schultz and the peanuts people, the first being the, the Christmas special, umm, which is also interesting in its own way.

2

00:03:42
Maybe when we get closer to December, we should have a discussion about that one. Cause that’s interesting too, but, but yeah, it’s the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown was The a second of those produced in 1966, a for the first time and it has been a staple of a television Ray wearing on CBS every year. Since then we didn’t watch it on CBS.

2

00:04:14
You don’t think it is aired there yet. It should air a little bit later. Umm, but we just a sort of watched it on streaming, something like you do these days and my kids enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed it as well, but it is an interesting counterpoint to the Christmas special in some ways in which I guess we should talk about and a very subtle, not parody, but there is a satiric element to it that I think is in counterpoint to the Christmas special, which we can talk about a little bit later, but it’s about the peanuts gang Charlie Brown Lynas Sally Snoopy and loosey in particular and the other various people enjoying the Halloween holiday and a line us up the sort of sober-minded philosopher of the group waiting for the appearance of the Great Pumpkin who is supernatural being in of some sort who blesses children with gifts and a candy.

2

00:05:22
If they have faith in him and wait for him in the most sincere pumpkin patch and a so Linus is fruitless weight for the Great Pumpkin is a encounter point to the other. Kid’s how Louie in activities in Snoopy being off and his own sort of crazy adventure, a pack a lot into 20 minutes or 25 minutes, it’s just an impressive economical piece of storytelling, but a that’s the broad strokes of it. What are your thoughts and feel well?

2

00:05:53
And I’m a big fan. Let’s let me just get that out there. I love this special for a lot of reasons. What are your thoughts, feelings or relationships with this, with this piece of animation?

3

00:06:05
I, I, I also love it. It’s to me it lands is a L as a adult. Whereas the, the Christmas special seems like it lands a bit younger. There are some like when I say adult, it’s not like they’re, I don’t know.

2

00:06:26
Well, peanuts, I mean, Charles Schulz is sense of humor was always oddly complicated, especially given that it’s supposed to be children’s entertainment and that comes through in a big way. The Halloween special it’s they are in the Christmas special too, but it, you know, there is a somewhat, there is some sort of John just interesting sophistication happening in the

3

00:06:49
Yeah. It’s so I, I noticed that I, it, it does what it does, what the Christmas special does to, which is sort of create a tone that matches the season perfectly and invite you into that mentality and that space. And that’s, that’s one of the reasons I like them, both you are, you’re sort of referring to the satire peace of this, which is a way that the line is character who is here.

3

00:07:24
His is a little bit more earnest than, than, than even Charlie Brown in, in most of the other things that we see them in is, you know, following the great Pumpkin and it is the way the piece lands is a sort of, I mean, I don’t know, it’s like atheist ambiguous where as the Christmas special is definitive and Christian.

2

00:07:58
Yeah. And line is just to make clear what we’re talking about here in the Christmas special, you know, it’s all about the a, you know, Charlie Browns disaffection with a holiday. There is a, a, an adult aspect to that too, actually, you know, in, in that one, he feels very disheartened and, you know, disaffected by a guy, what he sees as over commercialization and sort of an emptiness around the holidays as a sort of on We that is connected to that.

2

00:08:30
And it’s all surrounding the hustle and bustle of getting this Christmas pageant a, you know, together, which feels very sort of nonreligious in its, in its effect, like in the, or, and its content, the particular, a Christmas thing that their doing with all the kids and as a client and a also Charlie Brown and trying to find a good Christmas tree, which he has a hard time with. And I’m, you know, the climactic moment, all of that Christmas special is Linus who again, is sort of the wise philosopher character steps forward and says, I can tell you what Christmas is all about.

2

00:09:06
Charlie Brown like, After, he is mournfully wailed. I don’t know what this is for. Why are we doing this? And he quotes passage from the Bible detail. It, well, the King James Bible detailing, you know, the birth of Christ and a, you know, a low there were shepherds and, you know, the fields and a, you know, bring it on to you, tidings of great joy in E it, its like this, you know, minute or maybe a little less than a minute of primetime television where he’s a guy, you know, reading the IRD, residing scripture out to people.

2

00:09:47
It even in 1966, this was weird, like, and a little out of step. I mean, Schultz was a believer. He was Christian, but had a very complicated sort of relationship to is Christianity. And it was, you know, cynical and very dark and depressive. And this is the sort of unambiguous moment of him being more sort of just sort of an uncomplicated in, in the past.

2

00:10:23
It was expression of that, which a is a part of him, but you know, whenever there’s something sweeter or something like that, he tends to cut it. And there aren’t a lot of moments of him being overly religious in his work with peanuts. And some people remember this a lot like in wine has, is doing that. They don’t remember the Great Pumpkin as much, which is really, and apparently this is true. If you look at it wine in this position of fruitlessly looking for the Great Pumpkin to come as this act of faith was in part Schultz’s response to the way that whiteness had been portrayed and the Christmas special, which is to say like Linus is, you know, sober and earnest and faithful as he is in the Great in his, like in his expression of religiosity in a day in the Christmas special.

2

00:11:25
And those same qualities are in his like undying faith and the Great Pumpkin, which is the dumbest idea that there could possibly be and the entire Christmas special or no, the entire Halloween special, everybody in town, this is the dumbest thing ever. It’s just you’re. So it is, you are an idiot. You are a blockhead in the parlance of a peanuts for believing the Great Pumpkin. He will never com and he is a laughing stock of all the children and all the adults who they talked and said, Lucy is a trick or treating fir for a line of us and says, can you give me an extra piece of candy for my dumb brother?

2

00:12:08
He is waiting for the pump. The Great Pumpkin to arrive is like in line, it says haul a, you know, a spiel about, Oh, ha we have to go to the most sincere pumpkin patch, which is the craziest ambiguous like idea. And Charlie Brown is a little sister, a Sally who is in love with him is a, you know, this, Oh, I believe you. And then she gets increasingly angry over the course of the night as she’s missing trick or treating and the party, the Halloween party, because she sat waiting for the great Pumpkin, who was never going to show up.

2

00:12:43
And it ends with her like chewing Linus out and leaving him on his own in the pumpkin patch and all of that. I mean, it really was like the other side of Charles Schulz is a sort of ideas about spirituality and religiosity. And if you take the two of those specialists together, it has an interesting message.

3

00:13:05
Yeah. I would just add to that, ah, the Christmas special, which I am more familiar with, but does this iconically Mmm. Which is hit a melancholy tone about the season in ways that the other The that not a lot of other pieces of pop culture do well, a the borough live stuff does to some degree sometimes, but I think this is, this is the, I mean, literally it provides the soundtrack of that melancholy take on the holiday, right.

3

00:13:45
And,

2

00:13:46
And miss time at the Christmas time is here song being the sort of embodiment of that.

3

00:13:52
And Great, Pumpkin hits that note too, in the end, because it’s, as you say, a fruitless search on the part of Linus for the great Pumpkin who spoiler alert, never shows, and it is not an upper of a watch. I mean, it’s it’s well, and it’s, it’s got some charm, but like it’s, it’s not what I would call satisfying. And it,

2

00:14:18
When the railway, well, you know, I mean it, well, because the main throughline and the whole thing is the great Pumpkin the weight for the grade. Pumpkin turns out to be a total bust. And there’s funny things and interesting things happening, but it is like dour in depressive in some ways. But also very funny to me, I, I think like in, ah, you know, in addition to Linus is waiting for the Great Pumpkin to arrive the kids all go trick or treating, and Charlie Brown who is hapless in everything he does, like first his ghost costume when he tries to it’s like an old know peanuts, you know, old school, a school, like take a sheet and cut two holes in it for your eyes ghost.

2

00:14:59
He somehow manages to cut like a dozen holes into his, his costume. And then when everybody else goes trick or treating somehow randomly, instead of getting a piece of candy at every door, a somebody gives Charlie Brown of rock. And so their kids after each door go in and compare what they got is that we got a piece of candy. I got bubble gum and Charlie Brown is on it. I got a rock at the end of the night. He inexplicably has a bag full of rocks, which is, I mean, I there’s the thing like the profile we found darkness of peanuts, you know, relative to what people like ideas or thoughts about it.

2

00:15:42
AR is fascinating to me. It’s like, Oh, peanuts is so cute. And then it’s like, no, it’s not. I mean, it is a profoundly melancholic. And you know, clearly, you know, piece of work that is clearly the work of a depressive man, like Charles Schulz is, is so clearly a, a deeply depressed person. And, you know, peanuts is probably a big part of how he dealt with that.

2

00:16:13
And then, so, so you’ve got on the kids are unrelentingly mean to Charlie. Brown like when he, you know, it Charlie, Brown story begins with the iconic Lucy holding the football. And this is the first time in animation that this had been portrayed. She is saying, come on, Charlie Brown cupcake the football I’ll hold it here for you. And he’s like, no, every time you do that, you pull it away. Hey, I’m just going to run out, run real fast, you’ll pull it away. And I’ll land on my back and kill myself, which is red by a child.

2

00:16:48
Actor. Voice is like, wow, this is like getting right into it. Re the very beginning. And you said, no, I won’t do that. Says, look, I’ve gotta sign it document that says that I won’t do that. Is that a signed document? Well, if there’s a signed document, then you, how can you go rock? And then he goes running and she pulls the football away. He flips through the air lands on a bit on his back and the screams. And then she says, the funny thing about this sign document, it wasn’t notarized. And she goes walking off. And I mean, well, there’s a, you know, a whole bunch of our business and a real deep sentence of them.

2

00:17:24
This is for trading in that. And then there is just unrelentingly, like religion, well, mostly made to them. And he said, Oh, I’m going to a Halloween party. And Lucy says, ah, if you got invited was a mistake, there is a list of people whose should’ve come and a list of people not to be invited. And if you got an invitation it’s cause you were on the wrong list. And then when he finally was at the party, I said, Oh, Charlie Brown, I’m here. All the girls wanted to talk to Charlie Brown and he was like, so happy about it. He said, send on this share for a second. Is that it? And then they used his like huge round bald head as a model for the jack-o-lanterns and the wife in the back of his head draw a like grotesque jack-o-lantern face before they start cutting into the Pumpkin.

2

00:18:02
It’s just one awful thing after another. And Lucy loves stabbing that Pumpkin, it’s so funny,

0

00:18:13
Right?

2

00:18:15
I mean, there’s such clear characters and then Lucie is like really hostile and unpleasant to everybody. And when she’s describing the, the, you know, bobbing for apples is sort of obnoxious and then does it, and has this amazing moment of like Snoopy is hidden inside the apples and like has the one in his mouth that she, that she grabs and a half. And she freaks out when she sees it and screams, Oh f**k.

0

00:18:46
I got, I tucked dog lips. Ugh, poison dog. I’m sorry.

2

00:18:51
I mean, that’s the thing people think about Peanut’s is being, you know, Sweet and cute and kind of boring, but the deep weirdness of this cartoon, I don’t think it’s enough credit. It really doesn’t block poison. Dark lips is an amazing line of dialogue. Especially when you hear it from the mouth of a small child, which is who reads it A special, I mean, it’s its this enduring oddness that people don’t pay enough attention.

4

00:19:28
Can you feel like I love it

2

00:19:31
To me then the other like element of it is, is Snoopy, who is like this bizarre moment of like weird historical whimsy is he’s pretending to be a world war one, flying ACE. And we have this, this crazy diversion of him like, like pretending to fly his, his, his dog house in its this like long sequence, more than a minute of a hymn, then a hiding and sneaking across occupied France

0

00:20:07
Or, or

2

00:20:10
A, you know, looking for a place to you. It’s just such a profoundly strange thing. And my favorite part about it at the end is After Linus. Hasn’t, you know, the Great Pumpkin hasn’t come. He is been regarded as a total boob, you know, Charlie Brown and him are at the wall talking Charlie Brown said, well, this was a terrible, all I get was, you know, we went trick or treating got a bag of rocks. And I said, dad, the great Pumpkin never came.

2

00:20:41
And Charlie Brown says, well, don’t worry about it. I’ve done lots of stupid things in my life and minuses stupid, stupid. It says, I’ll show you Charlie Brown next year, I’m going to go find a pumpkin patch that is real sincere. And I’m going to sit down on it and you’re all gonna see. And it ends with Linus, angrily. Ranting is the credits are going. And again, this is supposed to be like the philosophical wise spiritual.

2

00:21:14
And this is response to somebody saying, yeah, that it was a weird, supernatural, believe you have is real dumb. It’s just so you are in any way. And it’s like, so a Charles Schultz give it to, can you take it away from your, you know, from your spiritual, whatever characters. It’s pretty interesting. One other funny little note. Oh, you have anything else you wanted to say about no, go for it. Go for it. One other funny little note about this.

2

00:21:45
I a N a here in California, we have Knott’s Berry farm, which is a theme park owned by Cedar parks, I think is the name of the parent company. And they have parks all over America. Umm, and the characters that they have at these are the peanuts gang. And one of the, it shows that they do around Christmas time is this like, Big like peanuts on ice show in this big theater or, and whatnot.

2

00:22:14
And they a it’s a funny counterpoint to the Christmas special, like a one line just gets out there on stage. They recreate that moment of him reading or reciting this scripture. There is, there is a funny little, a is not funny. There is a, you know, again, the way that it’s shot, the way that it’s done is, is Def for a spiritual moment because they have a spotlight on him.

2

00:22:45
But it’s just a kid saying this thing. They don’t gild the Lily at all with it. And it does have like an interesting, profound little impact whether you are, whether you believe it or not. It like zeroes in on the nub of the idea that makes Christmas enduring. You know what I mean? And it manages to effectively effectively communicate that. I mean, it’s a, it’s a good little piece of filmmaking. There’s funny and all mostly because it’s very simple and it’s very quiet.

2

00:23:19
And even though, you know, it’s the center of the thing, you know, there’s not a lot of pomp and circumstance around it. And as soon as it’s been said, they just move right pass. It was funny at Knott’s Berry farm on the show when they did it. Like when he’s, you know, one can imagine a theme park crowd, you know, in that show when you’re there, when he starts reading that scripture, like as soon as it’s, there is a long sort of applause like rafter, this applies from This, you know, audience that uhh, is like, yeah, somebody’s saying something spiritual in religious and Christian, are you in this weird ferocity that they had a company that moment and the thing where you feel like something’s been lost in translation here in this would be Charles shelter’s nightmare.

2

00:24:11
If you were to see this play out in person a anyway, go see this Christmas special or well the Christmas special, but watch the Halloween special while we’re hearing the season. It’s Great yeah, I do.

3

00:24:28
Well, it, it, it, it will stream too. I think I read, I’m not sure.

2

00:24:32
Yeah. It well, and every year it plays on CBS. And so it’s going to air there, but it’s streaming. You can find it all over the place.

3

00:24:37
Well, enjoy that. You do. It gets the time. If you enjoy the work of Sweet Tea Shakespeare the number one thing you can do is log on to patreon.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare and make a monthly pledge. Those pledges start at $5 and they go up to $500. Actually you can set whatever amount you want at certain levels. There are great perks, including in-person tickets.

3

00:25:10
And those include all digital access throughout the year. So if we have a streaming event is streaming concert that’s that normally would pay for patrons and the $20 level of just get in. They just get in. It’s a delightful, but that is the greatest way that you can show Support to Sweet Tea Shakespeare and help us continue to do the work of this podcast. And so many of the other things that we do throughout the year that’s patreon.com/sweet Tea Shakespeare.

2

00:25:49
And because it’s the fall season in a year that it is it’s an election year. We are coming ever closer to the Big presidential and everything else. So I should 20 something days. Yeah. 21 days from us we’re recording today are 23 days,

3

00:26:13
A little more than three weeks and a half.

2

00:26:17
What a freaking nightmare

3

00:26:19
It’s been. I mean, it’s also,

2

00:26:21
It is weird, but it’s been super weird in the last 10 or 15 days. Yeah. The weirdest time, I don’t know. I, you know, those would be who are allowed with us. We didn’t know what’s going on, but if you’re listening, they are watching this a day later, we are a little more than a week out from president Trump having been diagnosed with COVID-19 and everything

0

00:26:44
Crazy that has followed from that. I, I, it is funny. We talk a lot about a year. People talk about like, Oh, the writers for this a year really are, are doing it themselves. But it is crazy the way that this like plays like this whole election has played, like, as it is being written by somebody trying to like form a narrative just in terms of, and this’ll be the third act or a veil and wow.

0

00:27:15
Its a doozy.

3

00:27:18
Yeah. And on top of, on top of the COVID diagnosis, which is,

0

00:27:22
It was a strange four for a second,

3

00:27:25
A five or six day window had the vice presidential debate, which is great

0

00:27:29
To the strangeness. Yeah. So I must say that was a pretty normal vice presidential debate. All things considered. Well,

3

00:27:39
It was, but like to me it’s well it was normal except for the fly.

0

00:27:45
Yeah.

3

00:27:46
Beautiful, beautiful writing. If that’s what we’re calling it, she’s a lovely poetry. And also I think the best criticism I’ve I’ve encountered about the vice presidential debate is that it, it, it presented as normal, but you had to buy the sort of Pence, a side of things, which is that, you know, were in a normal time, normal presidency, he’s a normal Republican and everything’s just fine.

3

00:28:16
And if you bought that, then it was normal, but you kinda had to not load in any other information, regardless of which side of this, you know, at what point on the spectrum you’re on, you have to sort of operate in a, in a vacuum in order to make that work

0

00:28:32
Some ways. No, you’re right. I mean, it’s fascinating for watching Mike Penn sort of present essentially a normal affect and you know, a put a mainstream face on what’s a decidedly, strange administration for a Republican or it let alone, you know, the country and a, you know, trying to sorta normalize everything that that’s happened. And he’s, he’s a pretty smooth operator in terms of being able to sort of get up there and make things zeal.

0

00:29:06
I just say, well, I’ll just business. As usual has the world is burning Mike around us in all sorts of bizarre ways by, you know, aesthetically, it was normal, which is interesting. Cause so few things at that level ever feel that way anymore. So that was interesting. It’s been funny to see the people while we’re talking about the, the vice presidential debate, like people talking about it in the aftermath, I should have looked at a lot of commentary from both the left, had the right, the right, like very solid that like Mike Pence one, this debate, he won it, you know, on the, on the merits and are the points.

0

00:29:49
And boy that Kamala Harris is unlikeable. And you know, it really kind of highlighted that in concert with what’s going on with the Senate in the judicial nomination of Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme court, like really highlighted this aspect of Republican is, and conservatives in America right now that they think is interesting, which is so yeah, he won. If you already agree with him, you know what I mean?

3

00:30:23
Actually, I, I feel the same way. I, well, I will say for about three quarters of the debate and the way I would describe it is that each side one sure.

0

00:30:34
Which is, which ultimately means that buy one because they, it didn’t change the dynamic, but yes.

3

00:30:41
Right. I like, I think you, in a container you could watch it and you come out feeling good about your side. I mean, I think that’s, that’s it, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t move the needle. Umm, and it hasn’t moved the needle. I think that the, the trajectory that we entered into when Trump CA COVID, we’re still in, yeah, we’re still rolling.

0

00:31:08
It is his poll numbers or are you

3

00:31:10
Are still on a downward move in? And I don’t think that the vice presidential debate had anything.

0

00:31:16
I don’t think it impacted that at all.

3

00:31:18
Right. But about three quarters of the bait, the way through the debate. I do think the quality of it changed a bit from, well, a lot of is because of the fly. I’ll be honest with you. I think that had the fly not landed. We would be

0

00:31:35
Nobody would nobody, would we be talking about it at all? It is the only thing of all of interest that happened in, you know, so there’s that. But then to hear like this sort of really, you know, confident feeling like Republican sight, there’s just nothing there. And now the Democrats did their own version of this too. So I don’t want to just say that Republicans are the only ones doing it, but it, but I do see like Democrats engaging with some questions a little bit more like Kamala Harris in her self presentation made a choice to do these very sort of demonstrative, facial expressions and response to, to pants.

0

00:32:18
Now I think they’re Natural for what its worth. I think that it probably is a realistic sort of response. It’s just, they’re polarizing to the extent that if you’re on the receiving end, either in person or by proxy as a person on pencil side of these sort of weathering contemptuous

2

00:32:40
Looks, you are going to hate it. Right. And I think

0

00:32:48
It is, it is, it’s a tool, right. It’s meant to dislodge you it’s meant to a meeting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think its comes from her legal background. That’s the way that she,

2

00:33:01
It does what she does. Yeah.

0

00:33:04
Yeah. It is off putting if you’re on the receiving end of it. But there are a lot of people that that’s super satisfying for like, you know, scrolling through Twitter for every right wing person who is just driven mad by them. I, you know, a ton of people who are just reveling in this sort of, you know, feeling of somebody from you

2

00:33:22
Finally to say it,

0

00:33:25
But he’s facing that administration actually showing them that they’re unhappy with it and that they think it’s silly. And so its a wash there and its the inability

2

00:33:38
Of it like it

0

00:33:41
Because of conservatives in this race to recognize how are people who are not them are responding to things like Democrats don’t have that problem this year. I think they had it well in 2016 with Hillary, but everybody is like Democrats are so, so keyed up and terrified of the same thing happening that happened then that like they’re examining things from every possible, you know, place like I’m talking about public Democrats like politicians and media and people are, you know, are constantly worrying about these things and thinking about them and Republicans are just going forward in this crazy sort of seemingly unselfaware, you know, fog that is just like, wow, I, and, and given the fact that Donald Trump is their nominee, its, it seems like a massive dereliction of duty when it comes through at a big way in the Amy Coney Barrett debate were all of these people like S you know, I don’t know how much of its a put on are, how much of its honest, but either way it’s, it’s sort of galling.

0

00:34:54
This response is like, well, they just won’t answer a binding and a Harris won’t answer whether or not they’re a four court packing or not. And that’s just unbelievable that they won’t do that. And the idea that anybody’s talking about it at all is incredible. And it’s like, God, give me a break. So like, what do you think brought us to this point?

2

00:35:12
It’s like, you know, the The

0

00:35:16
Irritation over that and the outrage over that when this is all happening, because Mitch McConnell took into his hands powers that he had in the constitution, but which did break norms in order to get there. And then to be furious at the prospect of other people doing that too, you know, is galling. It’s like what it’s like. So exactly at what point is sort of the, you know, the flouting of norms that are technically allowed within rules, you know, within the rules for the purpose of advancing your political position.

0

00:35:57
When is that? Okay, and when is it not? And it seems like,

3

00:36:01
Well, that’s the expedient for you? I mean, that’s, that’s, and that’s, that’s how things have operated in these last gears. I mean really since, since somewhere in Obama’s term, right. I’m sure where the, the, the game change and, you know, it was a lot of a filibuster stuff’s in the Senate related to judicial nominations and executive nominations on the hole. And some are some changes. There are some rule changes. I think we’re gonna see more and more have it.

3

00:36:33
And, and some of it, it breaks down. And some of it’s a kind of an overlapping circle with the ven, a Venn diagram with the electoral college complaint as well, where these a, a sort of stodgy, potentially rules of the Senate play just are not in, not in favor of the majority of the country anymore, where they, they are ment in something that can be argued like a good design to protect rural States.

3

00:37:10
But they, and if, if that was the extent of it, I think no one would have a problem with it, but they’ve been so exploited in recent years that I, I, so to go back to your original thing, I mean, it, it was frustrating to me to sit there for the second debate in a row and here the democratic candidate not answer the question, because I think the EF the, you know, the thing to say, if your, that Democrat is, yeah, we are going to pack the court and here’s why we’re going to pack the court.

3

00:37:44
Cause you didn’t play by the rules of America.

0

00:37:46
Yeah. That’s a problem. They can’t do that though. I mean, there’s a way to thread this needle, which is, I, I am irritated Biden, didn’t say something along the lines of this, which is honestly what Chuck Schumer said, basically putting this on to it. It’s like if he said I’m an institutionalist, everybody knows who I am. And everybody understands that I would prefer not to be going down this road. And I would prefer that we keep things the way that they are having said that under the circumstances we are dealing with people who have been pretty ruthless about this. And I don’t want to a say something that I’m, you know, say a will or won’t do something.

0

00:38:21
And after to go back on it, like the Republicans did with a judicial nominations. And I don’t want to take anything off the table because this is a difficult situation. It’s a high stakes negotiation and well, I’d prefer not to have to reach for that. It would be irresponsible for me to say, you know, preemptively, we’re not going to do X, Y, or Z, but let me be clear. I would prefer that we not have to do that. Please don’t make us being the application.

0

00:38:54
And I think that that would probably put to bed. It’s a little weird that they haven’t said something like that. But also, you know, I, you know, it’s funny when this came down and when the court question happened here with Barrett, a potentially taking Ginsburg seat, I had a hard time getting too worked up about the Republican’s decision to move forward.

0

00:39:24
Cause it’s like, I’m of course they AR and the Democrats would tu the thing to be upset about was what happened in 2016, not the fact that they’re doing what they’re doing now. They lied that, you know, it would of been a different thing to if at the time, if at the time McConnel and then everybody else has just come out and said, we have the right to do this. This is what we’re going to do the end. I mean, there’d be an honesty to that.

0

00:39:55
That’d be difficult to argue with and, and that’d be upsetting, but it also wouldn’t like the fact that they raised the specter of, Oh no, no, this is a, there’s a honest and forthright and good in keeping with norms, reason why we’re not going to do this and then just ran ride over it. We have the opportunity came about. I mean, that’s, it’s just ridiculous. And it’s frustrating to, because it’s like, again, conservatives tell themselves a story that they are the heroes and they are the aggrieved party.

0

00:40:31
And especially when it comes to like court issues, like the Robert Bork, you know, nomination that, that crashed is this original sin that they feel like allows them to take any measures whatsoever from now until forever. But the truth is McConnell has been far more ruthless in terms of the way that he’s, you know, employed and, you know, employed his prerogatives and flattered norms. So like everybody talked about, well, you know, the Democrats are the ones who is, who blew up the Vito, but you know why they blew up the veto, like the specific case that prompted that was when McConnell was drafting legislation to a shrink the size of the appeals court in California.

0

00:41:24
So as to make it less powerful, you know, and, or, I mean, like they were looking it’s like they were looking to undo norms, their, and it’s like, and so they go, Oh, they balked him from doing that. And this was also in the context of them stonewalling, every single judicial nominee that Obama set up there, it looks like, I’m sorry, but this has gone back and forth far too much for anybody to credibly say, you know, they started it.

0

00:41:58
And we’re the ones who we’re just participating in the fight. It’s such a stupid juvenile argument. Now we’re just in it forever and ever. And I find it very difficult to be sympathetic at all too, like, well, yeah, you know, McConnell was exercising his prerogatives, but, but this is really too far. No, no Tea Tut, you know, sorry, how dare you and you’d get, get it over it.

0

00:42:29
Its like, this is where we live now. And if you don’t like it, then let’s do something about it. But pretending that there’s moral high ground to be seized in this argument is infuriating to me. That’s my weird little rant. Sorry.

3

00:42:47
Well I’m, I’m right there with you. I’m interested to see. So a I’ve been following a lot of stuff this week and one of, one of them is about ah, the, the, the comparison of the polls now to the polls in 2016 and how actually Biden is underperforming

0

00:43:09
Compare in certain yeah. In certain, by a certain metrics. Yeah.

3

00:43:12
By a certain metrics. He is, he’s an underperforming, a Clinton, you know, in, in, in, in what were then swing States in AR to some degree this time To, I’ve been following that and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it, it works through the advantage of both sides, right? So, so one gets a rosier picture then may be reality. And the other one has, you know, has they had a little fire under them to, to close out the next three weeks where, where I’m landing these days is that I’m, I’m reasonably optimistic that, that the Biden Harris ticket we’ll win the election on the electoral side, as well as the, as the popular vote.

3

00:44:01
I think the popular votes, basically a foregone conclusion at this point, the electoral college is behind that. But my a, maybe a terrible prognosticator, which is good. A because I think my prognostication is that we will see several months of violence and instability as a reaction to the Election and the sort of I’m the denial and anger phases of 12 steps of and returns to it in response to a loss.

3

00:44:37
I have our hole, some sliver of hope that Trump is building things now so that he alone will be the decision maker. As at least as far as him and his 38% of the country, he will be the decision maker. He will look at it. He will say it’s a loss and he will be able to do it. And it will be his magnanimity that allows the election results to go forward.

3

00:45:11
It’s like, I can see him saying, you know, it’s, it’s going to be screwed up whatever that is. I was, that was my like this.

0

00:45:18
Well actually, yes,

3

00:45:21
I dunno. It’s half, it’s half up a ton Corleone. The, I can see him doing that. I can like, he has tried to destabilize the, the ballots, you know, absentee ballots, all of that. And I could see him losing somewhat badly and saying, you know what, this was everything I said it was. But out of goodness of my heart, I’m going to

0

00:45:52
Peacefully transfer power. I could see that. I see that happening too. I mean, it’s really going to depend on how this all shakes out. Like I think it’s not inconceivable that there is a result that’s so lopsided in, you know, by the newspaper that Trump can seeds out of the night, if that were to happen. I think he probably would because what, you know, what’s the game at that point, right? It’s like they are, that’s not crazy life.

0

00:46:23
And I think there is I who knows what percentages are, but there’s a possibility that that happens that on the night, you know, Biden has enough votes that the Election gets called on national television. The way that it usually does a, the night of the election. That’s possible. I dunno if its likely, but it’s possible. Umm, it’s also possible that the Donald Trump actually the wins like B you know, the reasons you talked about when it’s just, it’s just going to depend on and what follows is really going to depend on how, what the margin is and what States are in contention.

0

00:47:08
If there are in contention after the Election like it’s, I’ve never seen an election like this before, you know it in my political consciousness, I’m sure there have been other ones, but they had never been something like this before. And I wonder part of me wonders that people stomach for a really

3

00:47:31
Bugging out and the aftermath of this is going to be tempered, you know, by the freakouts about it, that appreciated it. It may be, people are like, well, we won’t do that because that’s the thing that everyone has been saying. Or maybe it, well, I dunno, it’s a truly of in the air. Yeah. I, I think there will be blood. That’s what I think.

3

00:48:01
But you’re occupying the, a apocalyptic position, this Oxy apocalyptic position. I do think that the back and forth, I think the, the, the somewhat mild or a B, well, it depends on what, what you categorize is as a apocalypse. But I, I do think that the proud boys side there will be yet, we will see more like to Gretchen Whitmer thing and we will see versions of that. They are not with governors, but we will see violence.

3

00:48:33
Umm, and we will see that the Charlottesville thing. And we will see that kind of thing emerge again on the left. I think we’re going to see what we saw all summer, a different expression perhaps, but certainly rallies and depending on what happens, we’ll just see what happens. I guess. I think I wrote Facebook recently that like somewhere in America, there may be a person who went into a coma this week and who won’t wake up until sometime in 2021.

3

00:49:05
And I can’t say that there’s not a part of me that doesn’t to be that person a little bit ready to be able to skip over and rip van Winkle for the next few months. Things like it would be an amazing luxury.

1

00:49:26
Do you love the Arts? Do you love Sweet Tea Shakespeare then you should consider being a guest on one of our podcasts for more information, get in touch with us@hoursatsweetteashakespeare.com that’s H O U R s@sweetteashakespeare.com.

3

00:49:44
I guess we’ll probably just talk Sandwiches okay. Andrea Sandwiches in our ongoing discussion of fast food, a Sandwiches and our ratings on them. We have a lit today, a Jersey Mike’s and their original Italian sandwich, which we will give you are ratings. And our reviews of you wanna kick this off their Jeremy. I will. So we, we score these in, in several different categories. I’m going to go through each of those categories and list my points.

3

00:50:17
And then I will talk about the sandwich experience. So I have flavor six points, mouthfeel, two points, adjoining produced, two points, bread, one meat, three adjoining sauces and condiments To Sandwiches aesthetic three complementary items, one contextual sleaze To appraisal have the cost three personalities nigh unto the sang, which to the nature of the Sandwiches lingering and the memory minus two for a total of 25 points out of 50, this is one of the highest ones I’ve done so far.

3

00:50:56
I liked my Jersey Mike sandwich. If it was indeed a Jersey Mike sandwich and not a Jimmy John’s sandwich or a Quizno’s sandwich or another Sandwiches just like it from one of another hundreds sandwich shops. Yup. The problem here with the journey Mike’s Jersey Mike’s classical Italian is that the sandwich is utterly incompletely forgettable, the Jersey Mike’s in North Ramsey street in Fayetteville North Carolina, his in a strip mall next to a tanning salon and a mobile phone store next to a bank and a hotel.

3

00:51:29
It is the definition of a nondescript chain chain sandwich store. You can’t call it a joint or even a place. The sterile interior is every airport restaurant you’ve ever walked into no character, no joy, just the sandwich and the Sandwiches unremarkable and underwhelming. Jimmy John’s has a sandwich with meats. And man is that actually tastes like something that a Jersey Mike’s classic Italian is more akin to eating nothing. The only flavor is from having the sandwich Mike’s way, which is the brand shorthand for add some vinegar and oregano, which is Sweet redemption.

3

00:52:08
What is Sweet redemption for Jersey Mike’s is not it’s cold cut Sandwiches but it’s hot Sandwiches takes on the Philly cheese, steak, chicken cheese steak in a few other With meets that are actually grilled on a flat top of a short few feet away. This option, not the microwave toasted subway or Quiznos or the cold cut only Jimmy John’s is the thing that sets Jersey Mike’s part from the others as a chain. And if I could give bonus points for these Sandwiches in this competition, I would, but take more market share and a sandwich, heavy market Jersey Mike’s needs a soul at its locations and some fresh ideas, four sides, bagged chips and free prefab cookies.

3

00:52:55
Don’t cut it.

2

00:52:57
All right, solid a analysis there. I want to point out that we give our reviews, our ratings and our reviews to completely separate from each other because we do hit some themes that are similar in both of these, which is interesting to me. We didn’t know that, ah, as I will show you now where my take flavor five points mouthfeel 2.5 points joining produce 1.5 bread, 1.5

0

00:53:26
Meat, 2.5, joining sauces and condiments 1.5 Sandwiches aesthetic 2.5 complementary items. One point contextual, a sleaze, two points appraisal have the cost three points personalities nigh on to the sandwich. One point the nature of the Sandwiches lingering in the memory zero points for a total possible points of a total of 24 points out at 50 possible points. So a very close to you in my ranking as well. So let’s talk about the word adequate theoretically in terms should be neutral.

0

00:54:02
I actually know adequacy suggest at a certain bar of acceptable quality has been met. So I guess it’s better than that. Something may not be exceptional, but if it’s adequate, then theoretically, it’s perfectly fine. Why then do my memories of this particular sandwich, which I would characterize as overwhelmingly adequate take on a decidedly negative cast in the book of revelation, chapter three, we read that in Jesus’s opinion, a person who, whose faith is lukewarm as opposed to cold or hot causes.

0

00:54:34
So much offense as to make our Lord and savior or ones, Lord and savior at any rate metaphorically spew said person from his mouth. This passage illustrates definitively for some, the principle of how I think being middling or okay, can ultimately weigh against it more heavily than if it was simply terrible. And I am sad to say that this is the fate that has befallen the object of our examination today. The original Italian from the establishment of one Jersey, Mike purveyor of submarine Sandwiches it was all right by this claim.

0

00:55:10
And then a offensive service unremarkable, the sandwich, not bad. It comes with provolone, ham, prosciutto, capicola, a salami and pepperoni on top of which I got Mayo, cherry pepper, relish oil vinegar, oregano in onions, and they skipped the lettuce and tomatoes. They are fine. The bread was fine. I accompanied this with a root beer and a packet of salt and vinegar chips. They were pretty good. I am living in the center of a black hole of crushing boredom. As I recite this to you, listen, it should have hit my sweet spot, put in the Italian sub on your menu.

0

00:55:45
And I will order it. Nothing was overtly offensive about the sandwich, but if I went back to Jersey Mike’s I would not order it again. And that is messing with my head a little bit. Our Italian subs really good. Do I actually like them as much as I think I do. I have only one memory of enjoying other versions of this sandwich from other establishments to reassure me that there are better ones to be had the white be hard pressed to tell you exactly what it was that was wrong with this one that has left me unsettled and irritated in any event in the future, I’ll be looking elsewhere to fill my Italian sub needs.

0

00:56:23
So they’re we are

3

00:56:24
They’re. We are. Thank you. I mean, so here here’s the issue for me. It CA it comes down. I think To environment, environment, and maybe service, I think had had those elements been in place. I probably would not have thought that the experience was boring or in your words adequate. It, it does feel so for a, for a brand that calls itself Jersey, Mike.

0

00:56:55
Yeah, I know, right. There are really putting yeah.

3

00:56:57
Begging for an authentic experience, you know, that’s, that’s like, Oh, there’s a guy behind this.

0

00:57:04
Write the New Jersey. It’s like, it’s such a, a Italian kinda, you know, big step forward. It’s like this better be a really good sandwich. Yeah.

3

00:57:15
Right. Its not in the environment is just every Jimmy buffet place you’ve ever walked into. Except not as, not as Jimmy buffet. It’s just not the full Margaritaville. It’s just like some Palm trees painted on the walls. Yeah.

0

00:57:28
You’re assuming we’ve walked into Jimmy buffet places, but okay. So point conceded a fair it out. We should talk about Jimmy buffet at some point in time.

3

00:57:37
Can I be for, from, you know, it it’s just a, it’s a, it’s the, the, the baby boomer, salt and pepper hair guy with the, the flip flops and the, the bad hat and his shirt is a, is a vented fishing shirt and he’s over tanned and he’s on his second marriage.

0

00:58:01
Well, we are learning some things about whoever it is that runs to Jimmy John’s over and over again.

3

00:58:05
Well, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of quasi tropical it’s beach oriented so that the Jersey Mike Think, even though it’s, you know,

0

00:58:14
Bike, the Jersey shore is what you’re thinking here about yet here.

3

00:58:17
It seems like certainly the decor where, where it has that sort of beachy vibe.

0

00:58:24
That’s interesting because that doesn’t really exist in the one that, in the ones that have gone to here, that, that does throw a different dimension into it though. But I honestly, I think the problem is a sandwich. It’s just okay. And you know, looking ahead to other Italian sub, so we have ranked in this competition and that I’ve had since like there are better ones, they are, that are legitimately better and this is really just okay. But I do agree with you the context really probably ways on that a lot, like again, name of the place Jersey Mike’s, you know, it’s like Jersey Mike’s, but the thing we really do are a Philly cheese steaks.

0

00:59:07
So what sense does that make if they call it Philly? Mike’s I think I wouldn’t be upset about it. Do you know what I mean? It’s a lot, not as if a New Jersey is the place that you go to get, you know, cheese steaks Sandwiches this is the problem.

3

00:59:22
You don’t go to New Jersey for anything on the culinary side. Right?

0

00:59:26
Well, there are some good pieces of, to be had a new journey. Right?

3

00:59:28
Well, I, I like you, when you think about pizza, you’re associating it with New York, you’re associating with Chicago st. Louis, you know, there is nothing that I can think of on the culinary side that you’re associated with.

0

00:59:41
Exactly. Receipts things and so on,

3

00:59:44
What are you buying there? You’re buying or the personality of a New Jersey and

0

00:59:48
Right. And it’s like, all right, give me a good sub here. I mean, I would S I will say though, that like the expectation that the Italian sub will be good at Jersey Mike’s does sort of come with it. So I guess it does sort of communicate that. And then it’s like, man, this isn’t even as good as subway. It’s like, what are we doing here? It’s a, it’s a problem. I know.

3

01:00:13
Well, I do, I do love the The the hot sandwich option.

0

01:00:16
Yeah. There’s good stuff there. Yeah. I’m you know, but not this one, man.

3

01:00:23
No. And I will say just, I don’t know if we’re getting it to it. I can’t remember if we’re getting to Quiznos, but like I Quiznos used to be a go to place for me. Yeah.

0

01:00:30
There just aren’t that many of them anymore, they are like sort of retreated from the market place to a large degree

3

01:00:36
When they were a hot meat, hot sandwich place as well, but that they didn’t hate their meats that way.

0

01:00:41
Hi. Right. They had the salamander oven that they would send the sandwich through at the end of having finished it. That was their real innovation to the, we make Sandwiches for You thing on a national level. It’s like, and then we toast them after it’s done.

3

01:00:57
Yeah. And Jersey Mike’s, you know, they are, they it’s a hybrid, I guess, between, you know, like they’re actually cooking the meat on a grill, like, Oh, I’m going to grill like a grill. I’d be thrilled.

0

01:01:08
It really is like a Philly cheese, steak place more than it is anything else it’s just confusing. You know, when they talk about it as the thing that it actually is, which, or as the thing that they’re calling it is, it’s just, it, it is confused. And its weird because both of our reviews, I feel like there is this underlying hostility to it for a sandwich that’s not bad. You know? I mean, I know it’s not bad. It’s fine. I mean honestly like our rankings of this are relatively high in compare.

0

01:01:39
There are totally middling, which is really where, how I would characterize This it’s all right. If I add one of these Sandwiches again and it’s not like, I’d say no, I won’t eat that, but there’s something really unsatisfying it in comparison to what the expectations are. So they’re we are, we did it. We did it.

3

01:02:01
So everyone out there in, in Sweet Tea Shakespeare internet land, thanks for checking us out. We will be back next week. Next week we were talking about the boy’s in the band, which is a Netflix adaptation of a Broadway play. A and we were talking about the boy’s the Amazon series. So a hang around for that. And we’re also talking about other sandwiches, the big Mac. So you’ll see us next week at around the same time, Sunday evening.

3

01:02:36
You’ll see us for that. Ah, if you have things you want us to talk about some time, if you have questions, you, you want to ask us, if you would like to be a guest where perhaps you come on the screen and we a judge you in a way that we judge Sandwiches, there are politicians, there are other pouches, there are other possibilities. So we can do it. We would be happy to have you on and to get in touch with us. You want to visit Sweet Tea shakespeare.com or you can email us@hoursatsweetteashakespeare.com.

3

01:03:08
That’s H O U R s@sweetteashakespeare.com. We loved to have You meantime. Umm, if you haven’t done it already hop on the Apple podcast and give us a rating,

1

01:03:21
Give us five stars. Say, how are you?

3

01:03:25
Good. We are. And it will, you know, we’ll just trickle through it.

1

01:03:28
We’ll get, we’ll get more,

3

01:03:30
More famous as we go. And, and that’s what I like. I like like mild internet fame.

1

01:03:38
Sounds good now to do that. Okay.

3

01:03:41
Well thanks everybody for joining us. We will see you slash talked to you next time. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

1

01:03:54
You’ve been listening to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare After Hours thanks for joining us and for being a patron. If Sweet Tea Shakespeare catch you next time.

The Sweet Tea Shakespeare Hours After Hours | Sandwiches, Cobra Kai, Norwegian Television

Rob and Jeremy talk about what they’ve been watching. And eating. But mostly they talk about comedian and guru Pete Holmes.
Patreon members get exclusive access to the official Cocktail Hours live stream, where patrons get to choose the content and interact with  the hosts. Join us there at patreon.com/sweetteashakes. We are a 501(c)3 charitable  organization.
Contact us at hours@sweetteashakespeare.com
The show is produced by Claire Martin and Jeremy Fiebig.
Our Director of Engagement is Ashanti Bennett. Jen Pommerenke and Julie Schaefer also assisted with this episode.
This project is supported by the Arts Council in part by contributions from businesses and individuals, and through grants from  the City of Fayetteville, Cumberland County and the North Carolina Arts  Council, a division of the Department of Natural & Cultural  Resources.
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1

00:01:07
Welcome to the Sweet Tea Shakespeare After Hours where we offer you in depth conversations, insider insights, and a sneak peek behind the scenes.

0

00:01:25
How’s it going? I’m great. How are you? I am fine. I guess. Sure. Let’s say fine. A very busy trying to juggle various aspects of life, you know, which is stressful and whatnot, but doing all right. Good. Doing all right. Happy to be here today to talk about various things.

0

00:01:56
We’re going to talk about the things. Yes we are. How are you doing? You know what I’m doing? Okay. Actually, I really am doing OK. The, so you may know that I live on a college campus and earlier this week, that college campus was a shut down is not there. So they did not shut down, but they have gone under like stricter controls. So you must wear a mask outside and classes aren’t meeting face to face.

0

00:02:28
So there are some things happening. Got it. You know, it’s, it’s a little bit more apocalyptic, like 15% more apocalyptic. See, I think owing to the different States, the two of us live to live in. I’ve been living at 15% more apocalyptic. We’re catching up the South so we can like, the skin is a sticker here. Yeah. Let’s say that’s what it is.

0

00:02:59
Sure.

2

00:03:00
I don’t have an argument with that. Whatever, in any case, like my family lives in Texas too, so they’re like blindly going on with life and lots of ways. And I’m like, Oh, I liked that. Where I live. We can argue about why that is, I suppose. But why do that when there are so many other things to talk about in the world, indeed. Yeah.

0

00:03:24
What else is going on? You know, just trying to figure out life.

2

00:03:30
Yeah. It’s a struggle for all of us while I’m trying to do the same thing, a number of different fronts right now, trying to keep things afloat. The various balls in the air, as it were while in many respects, the world continues to crumble around us with the apocalyptic game.

0

00:03:53
You know, I, I found myself this week haunted by one of our earlier podcasts, like thinking, Oh, maybe,

2

00:04:03
And maybe, maybe Rob was right. Maybe the apocalypse is going to happen. Maybe, maybe it’s not.

0

00:04:13
Okay.

2

00:04:13
I feel like that’s an important thing to think about if only because it does have a certain motivating factor to a financial way, like things could actually not workout is to try and make them work.

0

00:04:26
Yeah. I a, I, I made some more donations to political campaigns is this week.

2

00:04:34
Yeah. Fingers crossed. It’s this weird world that we’re living in where I feel like at any given moment, I’m either massively overreacting to what’s happening or massively under-reacting too it. And what one of those things is true. And it’s impossible to know which one until after the moment when you should have done something has past, and you’ll either know you did the right thing or you massively overreacted or massively under reacted.

2

00:05:06
And there is no way to no, it in the moment I feel like that’s the state of play. Right. For sure. So for sure. Anyway, we’ve got a number of different things that we were planning on talking about today is why don’t we dive in? Our the first topic which you suggested? Actually, it was a little surprised because this is something that independent of each other, we were both somewhat familiar with in fog.

2

00:05:39
And that is mr. Pete Holmes is interesting career. If you want to talk a little bit about that. Oh my gosh.

0

00:05:44
I think I’ve become a, a top to bottom Pete Holmes fan boy. I did. I didn’t know his work super well. I mean, I caught and some specials and some things like that here and there, but, but I do watch a lot of standup and he was sort of one of many, and I think I got actually turned onto him through the liturgy a podcast, or has been a guest a few times and had some things to say that were like not funny at all.

0

00:06:21
And I’m, I’m used to, I’m used to hearing interviews with, with the comedians or whoever who, who don’t get into that, but he was going to like a really like familiar, I think, spiritual place for a lot of people. And so I started listening to as podcast and low and behold, he is sort of conducting like a, I don’t know what you would call it. It’s I mean, it’s, it’s his podcast, his conversations with I’m with other comics and entertainers.

0

00:06:55
And And a spiritual leaders at times. And it’s like, I don’t know. He’s like a teacher now he’s like in a, in a sort of post enlightenment phase of his life. And he is, he’s teaching people about sort of mindfulness, Buddhists practice stuff with Ron DAS psychedelics. And it’s, it’s pretty deep and pretty good actually.

0

00:07:25
Umm, I get a lot of help out of listening to him. And then so, so he talks on the podcast, which is called you make it weird. He talks about his show crashing and that’s how I kinda got turned onto it. So I binged it a with my wife, Nan, I don’t know, a couple weeks ago, like we could not stop watching it and think it’s just pretty fantastic. It’s a, it’s a, a treatment on him coming up in the, the standup comic scene in New York and in features a lot of other comics and like SNL alums and things of that nature kind of helping and tell a story.

0

00:08:11
So yeah, and it’s, it’s really good kind of charming deals with some of his, a fundamentalist religious upbringing, which really defines sort of how he approaches the world. Now I’m not, he’s not a fundamentalist to sort of move past it, but he refers back to that point. That, and I just think his he’s interesting right now because he’s, he’s one of the very few people in popular culture who is sort of bringing what I think is an authentic spirituality, a to the fore in a, in a way that’s not Oprah.

0

00:08:48
I mean, Oprah is the other person that’s doing that. You know what I mean? And he’s, he’s a, he’s different.

2

00:08:56
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s true. Is it that his project is his spirituality sort of writ large as is interesting. And that, that clearly is the thing that he keeps returning to throughout his career. I I’m aware of Pete Holmes I have existed here in Los Angeles sort of at times on the sort of far outer reaches of the comedy community. So I know a lot of people who know him and we have some overlapping overlapping acquaintance circles, I guess would be the thing to say, so there are two degrees away, something like that, right.

2

00:09:41
It, and using the, a, the Kevin bacon scale. And so I, I’ve never met Pete Holmes before But have this funny sort of I, whatever, it’s not, it’s nothing special. It’s just, I probably a lot to people who, who know of in sort of no, a lot of people in common. So through his, the comedy career, in his podcast in particular, it’s like, Oh, look, there’s been a person I know talking to Pete Holmes. And I became aware of him a number of years ago, I guess, sort of in that way and the way that comedy works in LA, everybody who does podcasts.

2

00:10:22
And so I first became aware of him on other people’s podcasts, like a, I think like hearing a early on And and also, yeah, just as he became more famous, he’s had an interesting career trajectory, a in that he’s been a standup comic, he was an artist for the new Yorker. He liked did not a, that he was a freelance comic writer for a cartoon artist for the new Yorker, had a lot of cartoons that were published by the, for a while.

2

00:11:03
And then he had a short live talk show that was based out of Los Angeles that was produced by Conan O’Brien. And for two years, Conan was his lead in on TBS. And he had this funny little talk show and funny little is probably the best way to describe it because it occupied this weird space between traditional, you know, guy gets up and does a monologue talk show and has guests that he interviews, but it was like far more casual.

2

00:11:42
It was trying to sort of straddle these to start a more casual survey. Here’s the sketch. And we’ll do kinda what we feel like doing, and his monologues were, were very loose, but it also sort of follow that framework still. And the interesting show, he particularly did a lot of video game parity, sketches and stuff, and were a superhero things like he, you know, with his pop culture interests and it didn’t end up working out in the longterm.

2

00:12:16
But then after that, he got his HBO show, which Judd Apatow directed or not directly produced and sort of spearheaded with him as a creative partner. And that was crashing, which lasted for two seasons, three seasons, three seasons, right. Three seasons as well. And the through line or the one consistent thing, as you mentioned through all of this was his podcast. You made it weird. And he has a, you know, that not really as the place where his spirituality, I mean, his spirituality is always been a part of his act to a certain degree.

2

00:12:54
Like, you know, he really mind his, a conservative Christian religious background, a lot in his comedy. It’s a big reference point, but then he talks about it in a more open and serious way and his in his podcast. And that is an interesting show. You know, he’s developed a real community around it, which is a thing that podcasts allow you to do, they get you the, they let you know the person to a large degree and has kind of made that the focal point of, of who he is in a where in a weird way.

2

00:13:34
So that, that feels like kind of the main, his way, the main thing, even though he has these much more sort of mainstream outlets or has over time, like he had a TV show, a talk show that he had a, you know, actual, a scripted show on HBO M and E does in normal times tour as a comedian. But that podcast really seems to define him in his, his mission.

2

00:14:04
And that’s kind of an interesting thing. That’s not entirely unique in the world of, of a comedian’s particularly like most comedians do have a podcast now, but what is striking for a guy and who has, you know, touched the levels of success that he has, which is to say had multiple national television programs while at the same time, maintaining this is odd little podcast where he goes into, you know, in depth interviews, as you said, with entertainers in comedians, primarily, but the guy’s also a spiritual people and play spirituality tends to be the focal point of those discussions along with sort of, you know, Mark Martin style.

2

00:14:49
Where do you come from? Tell me about your life of thing, but then with a real serious emphasis on of the spiritual is yeah, I think, I think, you know, Marin Martin seems to be more interested in sort of politics. I love Marin’s interviews. I mean, he can get deep, like quickly. He’s a good interviewer, right? He is. He’s really, really good at that. But well Holmes is doing for me is, is, is pretty different. I mean, it is different it’s conversations is not, I w you know where I suppose Mark Marin oddly, and I’ve heard him say this before on his podcast, sort of without ever having tried for it specifically turned out to have a very strong, like scale as an interviewer, like in a journalistic sense almost, you know, like he just has this capacity for it, which surprised him even.

2

00:15:42
And that really kind of seems to be it. And he does kind of have a specific thing that he’s mining, which is like the history of entertainers in a specific comedians career. So there is a real thrust or what his interviews were about, and they do in some ways, feel a little more journalistic, even though the conversational, but there are Pete Holmes is not had no journalistic agenda. And his in his interview is there, there really are conversations where he’s like trying to get to the pink and gushy Senator of whoever he is that he’s talking at the end point to the other thing that I’m, that is sort of one of his theses or his MOS, is that he’s really interested.

2

00:16:30
And he sort of staked his claim as a comedian, as someone who does not want to get into it. He doesn’t want to be mean, which is not to say he isn’t, but he, yeah, that’s an interesting duality. So he, he, he builds what I think is his a mostly earnest brand around the idea that he, he doesn’t need to go the, the sorta dirty foul route. He is trying to be sweet and nice and, and all of that.

2

00:17:03
He, I think he struggles with it, but I think that’s his, his approach to the world or his lens on both comedy wise and in terms of his podcasts. Yeah. I think that’s true, but you know, what you’re, what you’re saying does indicate an interesting, I don’t know, duality a contradiction, maybe a, an ambivalence within him as a, as a figure, because there is this sort of, you know, him being a nice guy as a part of his persona, but he does interesting things to undermine that and play with it, you know, and he is a comedian and as a culture, comedians are mean people and, you know, among each other, they’re kind of mean, and that’s part of a language like a hostility.

2

00:17:55
And, you know, also just comedians are darker in their humor than civilians are. And he definitely has that impulse as well and understands that, but it is filtered through this background of, I was raised to be a nice little boy, which is still clearly sort of primal tug is within him. And. And a lot of his project seems to be about interrogating that, that need within herself and also separating himself from it But and then analyzing it in a way that allows me to still be a moral person.

2

00:18:32
You know, if he really does grapple with those moral questions, it’s like, eh, as a comedian specifically, another aspect of Pete Holmes that is related to that and, and offers an interesting contradiction is he’s an intensely ambitious man. And for somebody who is his self presentation often is about being spiritual and a little touchy, feely, and trying to sort of take the world as it is.

2

00:19:12
And all this, he is a person who just by virtue of his career, which is much, much more storied than many of his peers, who is his comedy, a buddies, some of whom I know personally, you know, he, this is a man who is clearly has a really driving ambition to be a professionally successful entertainer.

2

00:19:43
You know what I mean? And has through really, I mean, through town, he is a talented comedian. To me, it’s important to say that, you know, he, his, his joke structure is a really solid, his persona is extremely well defined and developed. You know, he has, are really a real agility with a crowd working with it and talking to people and is a really perceptive guy. So he’s a, he’s a super talented comedian, but I would say not necessarily given the, the Heights that in his career has risen too.

2

00:20:21
There are people of comparable talent who have not done as much as him as comics. And I think that that really is owing to him having a real laser focus on his career in a way that sets him apart from a lot of other people that get And. And that’s interesting when paired with his, I’m a nice boy, you know, spiritualist thing, because in our, in the entertainment industry, if you’re that guy there, you have a real hard, frankly, unpleasant quarter to you on some which I think he’s aware of.

2

00:21:03
And I don’t mean to say that it makes him funny and he does grapple with that openly, but it’s an interesting contradiction about him and something that I’m always struck by. It’s like, you know, for a guy who is all about sort of the spiritual, you don’t fight a lot of people like that who have been the host, have a national talk show of hands, had a TV series about their own life on HBO know. Well, and, and what I appreciated about the show is that he is, he’s aware enough of sort of what’s at play within himself and his story that that’s the, that’s the exploration of the show.

2

00:21:43
So when you’re talking about his sort of the tension between his sort of good boy persona and his sort of naked ambition, you see that play out in the show, it is that’s texted in the series, but that is fair and what not, but I mean, it takes us very, you know, somebody with a real steely-eyed understanding of themselves to even know that that’s a vein worth mining. That that’s interesting, you know, he, he is a multi dimensional person as we all are, but who really like Rebel’s in those contradictions and who is interested in playing a game out on a big stage.

2

00:22:24
A and I, I say this as somebody who, you know, works at the Arts And is a part of my project is to, you know, express myself and to put things out there as well. So I don’t say this with judgment, that it would have been applied to myself and they do, but, and frankly, this is something I feel about all entertainers, a certain degree, there’s a slightly crazy aspect to it as well. Like The the exploitation business of like the willingness to explore your own personal sort of experience and, and, you know, throw it out there so publicly, but to speak something that I’m always uncomfortable within myself and in our, in our business where at